"What'll We Do with Harry (Potter)?"

Karen loved rainbows!

The following excerpt is from an Editorial Forum Topic that I started at the website of our local newspaper, The Augusta Chronicle.

The topic ran from 11-20-2001 to 04-11-2002, and was themed on the reaction reported in the media, and from a few other sources, from the Christian Far Right against the "Harry Potter" phenomenon.

I discovered just today that the Chronicle is cleaning out older Editorial topics, and wanted to ensure that this particular one remained available for those interested in the "Harry Potter" phenomenon.

Please be advised that this excerpt may contain some strong and/or crude language, adult themes, and references to the Wiccan religion ("witchcraft"), and links to Wiccan-related and/or other adult-related information and resources.  It has also been editted with respect to content, to remove repetitive and/or unrelated text in replies ("[deleted content]") and to replace some of the strong and/or crude language ("[bleep]").

Children under the age of 18 are strongly advised to consult with their parents before reviewing the information contained in this excerpt.  Those with an aversion to reading material related to the Wiccan religion should not read further than this introduction.

Sincerely yours,
Mike Jackson


Karen loved rainbows!

Author Topic:   What'll We Do with Harry (Potter)?
dadnson
Junior Member

Posts: 30
From:
Registered: Oct 2000
posted 11-20-2001 12:29 PM
[Copy sent via Postal Service 11-20-01]

11-20-01 1155

Suzanne Downing, Editorial Page Editor
Augusta Chronicle
725 Broad Street
Augusta, GA 30901

Dear Ms. Downing,

I work at a local business that supports the Harry Potter series of books and the Harry Potter trading Card Game (TCG.) While tonight is the last evening that our "unofficial" Harry Potter TCG League will meet, we will be participating in the official League that begins in January 2002.

This isn't our first foray into TCG gaming for young children. I personally administered our Pokémon TCG League for two years, until the children's interest faded and Harry Potter began to take it's place.

Unusual for most children's TCG leagues, I ran our leagues with strict rules and guidelines for both the children and the parents. In two years, we did not have one serious complaint from our participants or from their families.

Now, we're beginning to see the tidal buildup of opposition from the Christian Far Right against the Harry Potter phenomenon. I use to be one of these fanatics, until God got a hold of me by the collar and shook some of the nonsense out of me. Still hurts a bit, as a matter of fact. :O)

So, while I wholeheartedly agree that children should be protected from Satanism (whether Wiccan or some other form), I don't see the Harry Potter books or movie as leading kids into it. One of the reasons that I personally lead our Harry Potter League is to deliberately lead the kids away from any sort of contact with the occult, and to keep the books, movie and TCG in the realm of fantasy and fun.

And so, since I am already an item of derision in the local Christian community, and as I'd much rather have "them" attacking me than our community's children, I offer a bit of poetic verse for the local Christian community to ponder...

    "What'll We Do With Harry?"
    by Mike Jackson
    Copyright © 2001 Mike Jackson

    What'll we do with Harry?
    Most children and their parents agree,
    That Ms. Rowling's created a story
    That's fun and exciting to read.

    Harry, orphaned, mistreated
    By the Dursleys and kids at his school,
    Discovers that he is a wizard,
    That life can be good, not just cruel.

    Harry, his friends, Ron and Hemione,
    Find adventure at Hogwarts, their school,
    Young witches and wizards it's training
    To be decent, productive, and good.

    But...

    In spite of the good that Ms. Rowling
    Intended her writing to bring,
    The Christian Far Right has determined
    That she and her writing should swing!

    "Woohoo! A gallows! A hanging!
    Let's protest at stores and the mall!
    Let's boycott the folks at the movie
    And burn the books, movie and all!"

    Oh... wait, there's a point that they're missing
    You have to be pure to speak out.
    If sin is alive in your living
    You'd better keep silent or... ouch!

    God doesn't fool with the foolish
    Whether sinner or child of God.
    If you dare to speak up against Harry,
    You'd better be ready for God.

    Do you drive at the limit that's posted?
    Do you tailgate and drive like a nut?
    Do you pay for satellite or cable?
    Do you shop at a store that sells smut?

    Do you protest on property that's private?
    Do you spend afternoons watching soaps?
    Do you watch pro sports on the telly,
    Oh! Look at the cheerleaders'... er... coats.

    Can moderation be found in your eating?
    Is a school bus far slimmer than you?
    Do you find that you practice your preaching?
    Do you honor the Word that is true?

    Now if, "if", I will not accuse you
    You find that you're living a lie.
    That protesting Harry's a whitewash
    Of the life that you'd much rather hide.

    Then pray and ask God for forgiveness,
    Ask Him for wisdom to deal
    With Harry, the books and the movie,
    And how to show kids that He's real.

Very sincerely and magically yours,

Mike Jackson, *Professor of "Wizardry"

(*Wizards of the Coast Publishing's official designation of Harry Potter TCG League leaders.)

[Edited on 12-22-01, at 1127 EST, to correct syntax and grammatical errors in the poem "What'll We Do With Harry."]

[This message has been edited by dadnson (edited 12-22-2001).]

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Valiantdancer
Member

Posts: 95
From:Villa Park, IL, USA
Registered: Oct 2001
posted 11-20-2001 01:39 PM
Sir,
Your characterization of Wicca as Satanism is clearly mistaken. Wicca does not worship Satan nor does it believe in the existance of such a being. There is a destructive force in the universe which exists for destruction alone. It is this force Wiccans refer to as evil. The Wiccan Rede (basis of religion) is As long as it harms none (this includes ourselves), do what you will. There are no blood sacrifices as misguided fear-mongers would have people believe. Nor are there kidnappings and forced conversions. Both of the acts mentioned violate the Rede. Although I applaud your ability and the ability of your gamers to distinguish between fiction and fantasy, I would like to urge you to learn more about a subject that you have termed Satanistic.

Information and titles of books accurately describing the religion can be found at http://www.cog.org/
This website is run by the national organization of COG. If you wanted realistic information on Southern Baptists, one would logically see their website for their views and suggested reading. Likewise, COG is a good place for information on the Wiccan religion.

------------------
Valiant Dancer
Responding Wiccan

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BigJohn767
Member

Posts: 1475
From:Wrens, Ga., CSA
Registered: Sep 2000
posted 11-20-2001 02:19 PM
My opinion is that if it gets kids reading and away from the boob tube, computer and nintendo, then it's a good thing. As a kid I loved reading about Tom Sawyer and Huck Finn, the Hardy Boys, Sherlock Holmes, etc. Anything with mystery and adventure. It seems that Harry Potter (I haven't read the books) is in this same vain. Imagination! The kids read and they have to envision in their minds what the book is describing. No moving pictures or Marios running around, just their imagination. Kids always have been and always will be intrigued by magic. There is absolutely nothing wrong with this. I would say to the religious fanatics who have to read something evil into almost everything they encounter, GET A LIFE!

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rotten2U
Member

Posts: 513
From:NYC, formerly Augusta
Registered: Aug 2001
posted 11-20-2001 02:50 PM
Why, BJ, I'm impressed! Sometimes I do underestimate you.

BTW, I grew up on Grimm's Fairy Tales. Maybe someone is familiar with them. They are not as common around here, but if they were, I wonder what the PC Crowd would make out of them. (I'd rather not know) I bet the ACLU would try to outlaw them due to violence, sexism, racism - you name it.(Wasn't there something along those same lines about the Lion King movie?) Strangely enough, I grew up to be a remarkably anti-violent, non-sexist, non-racist adult, in spite of having Grimm's Fairy Tales read to me. Hmmm...

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proud american
Member

Posts: 95
From:hephzibah
Registered: May 2001
posted 11-21-2001 11:33 PM
Well,Big John,I usually agree with you,and though,I Too enjoy mystery and suspense novels, I am VERY LEERY of SORCERY and the OCCULT. I am a born-again christian,and I do have a life. I don't beat people over the head with my belief's,but I WILL NOT deny them.I do my best to live my life with this one simple tennent in front of me DO NO HARM.which means that every day I do my very BEST to do no EVIL to anyone.Yes I do think the harry potter books can LEAD to EVIL.you say that it's just children using their imagination's, but I say imagination's can run to good or evil.Wouldn't it be better to give your children something else to read then something that may arrouse their interest in sorcery and the occult? Anyways,have you seen the trailers for the harry potter movie? where the woman turns into a cat? I just don't see that as wholesome fun. and I DO fear that it may cause children to seek after obtaining that kind of power.and frankly,that IDEA scares me horribly. and if this makes me a religious fanatic,I guess I am.

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CiscoMan
Member

Posts: 689
From:Augusta, Ga
Registered: Oct 2000
posted 11-21-2001 11:52 PM
As someone stated before, I read Hansel and Gretel....didn't believe in witches then. I read Beowulf.....didn't believe in monsters. I read Little Red Robinhood....didn't believe in talking wolves. I read Goldilocks....didn't believe in talking bears. I read many books that included dragons.....yet didn't believe in them. Da Da Daaaaaa, Da Da daaa. You see, I had parents telling me it was make believe. Maybe if you parents were to get more involved, you'd have nothing to worry about.

Oh, by the way, "The Wizard of Oz", became like a yearly ritual for my family, and NO, I wasn't out looking for damn tornados to jump on to take me to the land of yellow brick roads.

Do you tell your kids that Santa is make believe and that YOU are the one giving them presents? Might as well, hell a witch can't get around the world, while visiting every child, in one night.

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proud american
Member

Posts: 95
From:hephzibah
Registered: May 2001
posted 11-22-2001 07:22 AM
NAH, I tell them the real reason for christmas.which is to celebrate the birth of jesus christ.and of the gift he has given to the entire world,and why we too in the family exchange gifts out of love.

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dadnson
Junior Member

Posts: 30
From:
Registered: Oct 2000
posted 11-22-2001 07:56 PM
Several points:

1. Thank you, Valiant, for your clarifications on the Wiccan religion. I've done some research on the Wiccan movement and I disagree with you, but I respect your beliefs and your perspective on the topic.

2. I agree with "BJ", "rotten" & "Cisco" that it's how your parents teach you how to use your imagination. If a child "goes south" spiritually, it's not as much the path that they choose to walk as it is the path that their parents set them on in the first place.

3. "proud", if you read the poem "What'll We Do With Harry?" closely, you'll see that my concern is that America's believers are so set in their decadence that they can't see their own sin. Christ said that when "the salt" (believers) loses its effectiveness, it is thrown out as useless. The significance of this statement is sometimes lost for modern believers because we no longer use salt to preserve the food that we keep at home. We use refrigeration.

So, if you take Christ's statement in today's society...

If you open the fridge and the brand new carton of milk is green and a bit ripe and the fridge's light is out, you assume that the fridge has no power. The milk spoiled because there was no power in the fridge, not because the milk decided to grow fur on its own. You either fix the fridge by restoring the power, or you toss the fridge out and replace it.

America's children are "spoiling", not because of the sins of the lost (read "sins" as "Harry Potter", "Teletubbies" or "Whatever"), but because of the sins (lack of power) of America's believers.

Look at the neglected areas of believer's sins that the poem addresses. We're admonished to obey our government's laws unless we're instructed to sin. Oh, that's right, the traffic laws are... well... laws! We pay for satellite or cable TV and don't consider that it supports the very industries that we protest when we go after issues like Harry Potter. We violate the private property laws when we leave the right-a-way of a public street or highway and protest in front of a store or theater. We eat like gluttons, look like Fat Albert, and then get filmed burning books by the media. God condemns both harming our bodies by overeating and the act of eating to excess. (And the media just _loves_ to take advantage of our double standard, our refusal to confront our sins.)

For the love of God, we frighten _children_ in the name of "saving" them from something that we believe is "Evil"!

C.S. Lewis' Narnia books and Tolkien's Hobbit and Ring books all incorporate the teachings of Scriptures in the story lines. Yet, like Harry Potter, they all include good and evil magic, witches, wizards and evil incarnate. It's how you teach a child to use their imagination, how you carefully guide their reading, viewing and play that protects them from evil in its many forms. As our store's "Professor of Wizardry", it's my responsibility to ensure that our league's kids learn and remember that it's just fantasy and not reality.

The Harry Potter stories strike a chord in children's hearts because Harry is "the boy who lived". They see that Harry has been through terrible events, and lived, through the love and help of family and friends, through hard work, personal character, and, of course, diligence in his "non-muggle" studies.

Nine years ago my wife died after a long and terrible illness, and prior to that we lost three children. During her illness, my brothers and sisters in Christ turned their backs on us, reviled us and actually persecuted us. We suffered spiritually and financially, at times we went without the necessities of daily life. My son (14 yo) and I know what it's like to experience terrible things and to survive with our faith intact.

In the Harry Potter books (and in the movie to some lesser extant) this sort of survival reaches the hearts of children who find similar instances of heartache in their own lives. With the proper guidance, they will never go from fantasy to the practice of the occult.

Believers spend too much time hounding the lost over the sins that beset them, and not enough time examining their own lives for the taint of sin that allows their society to corrupt and descend into Hell. Some pastors even preached that the trade Towers were blasted because of America's "sins". The Towers were hit because of someone's bent idea of justice, and because God gave mankind the personal responsibility of each deciding their own destiny (what we call "free will".) America's "sins" as a nation had very little to do with it. Terrorism is a valid threat to any open and democratic society.

If America is descending into corruption, it's because the fridge light is out, the power is off, and so, the milk has its own putrid personality. It's the Body of Christ's fault, and we're too busy continually tossing the milk out to have the sense to plug the fridge back in. God's power does us no good if we as believers don't allow it to flow through us by honestly practicing our faith.

Harry Potter is small stuff compared to the way that American Christians play at being God's kids. Believers need to _live_ righteousness, not demand it out of unbelievers. If we Christians get serious about living right, the "milk" (American society) will stay fresh a little bit longer in the fridge and we adults might have a decent nation left to turn over to our children.

- Mike Jackson

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proud american
Member

Posts: 95
From:hephzibah
Registered: May 2001
posted 11-24-2001 04:25 AM
I agree with you,dadnson. But,I must say that my concern is for the children that do not receive the parental guidance to discern the difference between fantasy and reality.And in the society of today can you fault my concern?I recall the saying that the only thing needed for evil to flourish is for good men to stand by and do nothing.would I not be derelict in my duty to christ and the body of christ if I did not voice my concerns? You are obviously an excellent parent but,are all children so fortunate? I too wish to see this nation stand strong and our children abounding in the blessings of the lord.

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Cathy Lilly
Junior Member

Posts: 73
From:Maryland USA
Registered: Oct 2001
posted 11-24-2001 10:30 AM
The reason religious fanatics don't like Harry Potter is 'cause it shows children that characters who claim extra-ordinary powers are fairy tales and fantasy. Then when/if the children read the bible they will see the same claims of extra-ordinary powers and know that the Bible has it's own fantasy characters. It seems rather hypocritical to accuse the Harry Potter books of sorcery and occultism and defend the Bible which has the same type of occult claims of walking on water, healing the sick and casting out devils.

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proud american
Member

Posts: 95
From:hephzibah
Registered: May 2001
posted 11-25-2001 05:39 AM
And what most anti-religious fanatics fail to see and understand is that the miracles performed in the bible were documented and had witnesses.A far cry from fantasy.

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Michael Ledo
Member

Posts: 217
From:Windsor, SC
Registered: Dec 2000
posted 11-25-2001 06:46 AM
quote:
Originally posted by proud american:
And what most anti-religious fanatics fail to see and understand is that the miracles performed in the bible were documented and had witnesses.A far cry from fantasy.


Your right we do fail to understand this. We also fail to believe the virgin birth stories of the Roman Emporers and the documented miracles performed by them and other great men of that era. However we do understand that people lie to promote a religion that lines their pocket, or persuades them politically. The Biblical miracles are as well witnessed and as well documented as any miracle of that age-which means not too well. I could write 50,000 people witness me raise a man from the dead. That does not make it true. In fact there is not one documented miracle in the history of the world.

Now off the religion stuff. Is there any kind of pausible link between Harry Potter and the 9-11 bombings? Directly-NO! Indirectly we can make a semi-logical case. Harry Potter is the epitome of the Western mind set which believes in miracle nonsense. This is seen daily in our ads which turn winter into summer, makes old ladies young who then offer up sex and beer to young men, makes shampoo give women orgasms, turns perfumes and all kind of items into magical potions that will attract the opposite sex. Potter is just a reflection of the society that we have accepted. While most of us honor traditional values (these values are basically the same since 1945 when we started testing) our desire for economic security and "fitting in" now requires us to be monsterous consumers of products. Because of this the Third World, where the raw materials lay, are now viewed as an opposing population, keeping us from our personal security-we must have OUR oil under THEIR soil-that is what "our oil interests" mean when spoken by the politicians. We have become so hardened, have given in so much to the ads-our traditional values for love and respect of others as gave way to consumerism. Hence we see no problem in killing for oil, or maintaining troops on forign soil to protect that oil supply, no matter which culture or people this insults. Which is exactly why we got bombed. Read on. Capitalism produces a mass amount of products-more than any economic system imagined. It must sell these products to survive. Madison Avenue knows sex sells above all else. We are flooded with 1000's of sexual images on a daily basis. What effect does this have on a society? The Muslim fundlementalists don't want this effect. They believe it to be negative. The capitalists wants to sell its products to them. There is a major culture war going on which is causing unrest in the world, that is far beyond Harry Potter. When was the last time you seen Christians boycott everyday products because they use sex to sell them? The S. Baptists found an easy mark in Disney as the world's biggest evil, when a knee under a tunic in the Lion King was mistaken for a penis, but even in that boycott the Baptists did not boycott McDonalds or General Motors which has MAJOR contracts with Disney. They should have been outside every McDonald's in the country, or at least the Bubba Belt. Heck, I bet some enviormentalist groups, labor groups, etc. would have even joined in. But the cowards didn't do that, because Capitalism is more sacred than their core beliefs. Until Christianity realizes that it is the nature of capitalism to sell products by the best way possible, that capitalism will always be their moralistic enemy. Hence Christianity promotes the values it loathes by buying products that use sex to sell it. Satan just loves you Southern Baptist consumers. Harry Potter is really not the problem-it's the man in the mirror.

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Cathy Lilly
Junior Member

Posts: 73
From:Maryland USA
Registered: Oct 2001
posted 11-25-2001 10:06 AM
Where is the documentation for these miracles in the bible? Are you really going to believe that a dead person can get up and walk around? Are you really going to believe that someone can turn water into wine? Are you really going to believe that someone can feed a multitude of people with 3 fish and a loaf of bread. Just how gullible are you? Do you really believe that John Edward can talk to your dead loved ones? Do you believe Uri Geller can bend spoons with his mind? Do you really believe that the shroud of Turin has anything connected with Jesus? We can be just as fooled today by magic tricks claiming to be miracles as the people were fooled back in Biblical times. When people claim an extra-ordinary event we should expect to see some extra-ordinary evidence of such an event. Why should we accept a claim of a miracle without that evidence?

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Local,Non-Redneck Reader
Member

Posts: 1880
From:Augusta,Ga. U.S.A.
Registered: Sep 2000
posted 11-25-2001 08:22 PM
I just finished re-reading The Mysterious Stranger by Mark Twain. He never completed the book, but, in it, he touches on the subject of war & pious faith.

excerpt:
"Look at you in war--what mutton you are, and how ridiculous!"

"In war? How?"

"There has never been a just one...

[deleted content]

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Local,Non-Redneck Reader
Member

Posts: 1880
From:Augusta,Ga. U.S.A.
Registered: Sep 2000
posted 11-25-2001 11:15 PM
Another excerpt from The Mysterious Stranger:

a God who could make good children as easily as bad...

[deleted content]

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dadnson
Junior Member

Posts: 27
From:
Registered: Oct 2000
posted 11-26-2001 12:35 AM
In answer to...

"proud american" - you make an excellent point. "... my concern is for the children that do not receive the parental guidance to discern the difference between fantasy and reality."

That's where the we as parents can help our children's friends. I know that it's not likely that we can reach every kid, but we can do what _is_ within our grasp to help with. That's why I run and administer our store's Harry Potter League, and why I started through the four Harry Potter books today for the fifth time, and why I try to make the league a place where the kids can learn as well as play and have fun. I can't reach the entire community, but I can reach the 24 kids that will be in our group, and they just might learn enough positive character building to be able to share it with their siblings and friends.

Our store is limited in it's size, so 24 is about as many as we can fit in one group. What is satisfying is that we have a constant demand for membership in the kid's leagues. Doing it right works, and it develops into a sense of trust and cooperation with the parents. And it helps the kids themselves.

Now, someone is surely going to say "Well! You do it for the sales that these kids bring in!" <chuckle> No, the sales wouldn't justify the expenses that we incur sponsoring the leagues. For example, I just gave away 72 Harry Potter booster packs to our league kids, $236.88 worth of merchandise, not peanuts. If you had to label our reason for sponsoring the leagues, it might be simply community awareness of our store and community relations with our primary customer base, the family. Yes, our families buy our merchandise. But, they bring their kids to the leagues because _we care_.
-------

"Cathy Lilly" - you also make an excellent point; though I strongly disagree with your comparison of faith in fantasy and faith in God.

It takes as much faith to believe in fantasy things as it does to believe in the Bible. true. An amazing number of similarities exist between the magical acts of the characters in the Harry Potter books and the folks depicted in the Bible.

But, and here's where I disagree with you, the doctrines and principles taught in the Scriptures can be experienced. Not so with fantasy. I've lost three kids in death, and my wife in 1992 to a rare and fatal illness. I would not have survived the ensuing years of heartache and pain had it not been for my faith in God, and my faith in His ability to care for my remaining child and myself. It is very real, and very comforting to know that my faith is based on something that really exists, though we cannot touch it or see it.

I've also been deeply hurt and injured by so-called men and women of faith. Don't let their hypocrisy turn you away from faith in God. You're worth more than the earth itself to God.
-------

"proud american" - you wrote, "... the miracles performed in the bible were documented and had witnesses... " Very true, but also very difficult to convey to others if you're standing on their head at the time. <grin>

Most folk will only learn of God through the only Gospel that they will ever "read", through watching the lives of those of us who are already believers. For example, if you drive like the devil, don't put a Christian bumper sticker on the back of your car...

When Christians live their faith honestly, turn their "religion" back into a relationship with God, more folk will see the Scriptures in action and they will believe for themselves. I gave up religion when God managed to get me to realize that it was making me into a false representation of His Word. I lost most of my family, my testimony and my business while going through that process, and I'm loath to go through it again in the future. All I am left with at the end is my faith in Christ and the realization that I may be saved from sin, but I still live in a body that revels in it. The more that I learn about myself, the more that I marvel at the infinite grace and mercy of God.
-------

"Michael Ledo" - you wrote, "However we do understand that people lie to promote a religion that lines their pocket, or persuades them politically." For that matter, "ML", most folk lie just for the heck of it!

If the God's spirit ever decided to _really_ show up in power in a religious gathering, there wouldn't be enough windows and doors in the building for the panicked folk to get out of.

The intense presence of God in a group of folk will do two thing above all others. 1. He reveals our sin down to the very last molecule of uncleanness in our beings. No quarter, no mercy, no respite. We see ourselves as He sees us, and only someone already intimately acquainted with themselves can bear the strain and burden of this sort of deep examination and revelation of one's self. And, 2. The innocent rejoice in His presence. In other words, if you can pry yourself off of the floor and see through your tears, watch the kids. They _know_ Him better than we do as adults.

"Potter is just a reflection of the society that we have accepted."

No, I disagree with your statement, it's not. Neither are Lewis' Narnia books, Tolkien's Hobbit and Ring books, or most of the other wholesome fiction that is available today.

You want a reflection? Then read modern romance novels, read and watch most of the other fiction that's produced today by publishers and the media, or just sit down with your teens and watch music videos.

"We have become so hardened, have given in so much to the ads-our traditional values for love and respect of others as gave way to consumerism."

My Lord, man! Have you no hope? You may see it as so in your own family, or in the lives of your friends, coworkers and acquaintances, but not in _everyone's_ life! "Mashing The Mute (button)" is a sacred and popular sport in my own home. We race to the remote to silence the garbage (I _really_ would like to label it as "vomit", but I digress), and sometimes suffer minor injuries in the process. <lol>

I eat Campbell's soup because I _like_ Campbell's soup, not because of a commercial advertisement. I'd buy a Dell PC because _experience_ has taught me that they produce and support a great line of computers, not because of that teenage salesman in the ads.

I love the animation work of Nick Park and Steve Box ("Wallace & Gromit"), but have I ever purchased gasoline at a Chevron station because of the commercial advertising that these two produced for them. In a word, no!

While poverty is a great teacher to combat consumerism, and I've "been there and done that", any affluent society can take back their privacy and individuality by the simple process of not buying into the advertising. Either don't watch it or listen to it, or simply don't support businesses when you take a disliking to their advertising.

Big name companies are reviewing and simplifying their Internet presences through their websites, because they've discovered that folk don't appreciate the predominance of advertising that they have to endure while surfing the Internet. The advertising companies that run rampant through the 'Net are discovering that it's a losing venture. The smarter that folk become about ad-blocking and other anti-advertising methods, the less advertising that we'll eventually see on the 'Net.

The only really successful advertising on the 'Net is that of the pornographic type. And that's more of a reflection of our society's bent for the baser sort of desires than that of the value of advertising. By the way, don't misread that statement. Sex in the intimacy and privacy of marriage is great and a blessing from God. But outside of that narrow and sacred venue, it only brings dissatisfaction and despair.

"Capitalism produces a mass amount of products-more than any economic system imagined. It must sell these products to survive."

Wrong! Capitalism produces a climate that encourages the economy to excel. In time, the populace finds that it can sustain a better level of living and comfort. And, in time, it all evens out. Sooner or later folk learn that you can't "have it all", that there's a sensible limit to what having you actually need, or the economy suffers damage. And if America's any example, the economy eventually recovers.

The key is to reach the people with the message that there's a big difference between what you _want_, and what you _need_. That's where believers living within their means and practicing moderation can help our society. For example, imagine if every believer in the US started driving as dictated by the traffic laws and regulations of our society? I'm not going to do the thinking here for others, but start with the idea of 10's of millions of folk driving sensibly and safely. How would that effect the work load of our law enforcement folk? How would it affect traffic injuries and fatalities? How would it help our society in related areas like health care? Now, take the same idea and apply it to consumerism. Scary, huh? :O)

And then, sometimes reality steps in and something can happen that brings some folk back to the things that really matter, and a bit of sensibility is returned to our society... September 11th, 2001.

"There is a major culture war going on which is causing unrest in the world, that is far beyond Harry Potter."

No kidding? Are Muslim, or other societies "right" to be resistant to the Western "smut" that we allow our society to push onto other nations? Of course they are. You'd think that we'd be smart enough to see what that stuff does to our own society and toss it all in the garbage.

But, you have to look at the issue from both sides. Was the Taliban right in taking out the trade Center? No, of course not. But, they insist that they saw it as a "holy unction" from Allah. No, it was still wrong. Tolerance works both ways. We need to see that there are things in each society that need to be corrected, or at least not forced onto other societies, and all societies need to see the same thing about themselves.

Hmm... you know, that sounds a lot like everyone needs to stop living in hypocrisy and live like we all share the same planet. Nah, too easy. We're working with people here, and you know how _they_ can mess things up!

"Satan just loves you Southern Baptist consumers."

Ah, I wondered when you would get around to that bit of honesty. You also wrote "Harry Potter is really not the problem-it's the man in the mirror."

We _all_ have mirrors to see ourselves in, "ML"...
-------

"Cathy Lilly" - you wrote "Where is the documentation for these miracles in the bible? Are you really going to believe that..."

Simple answer, yes. I've seen God do things in my own life that defy logic, but He worked them out none the less.

"Just how gullible are you?"

Please, "CL", insults are beneath you. They weaken your arguments against God's existence and His working in the lives of men. Insults make you sound as if you are not arguing logic, but may have been greatly injured by someone masquerading as a believer and that you are simply striking out because of your hurt.

"Do you really believe that John Edward can talk to your dead loved ones?"

Nonsense. Harry Houdini spent a good portion of his life debunking the greatest spiritualists of his time. They were all frauds, and the same can be said for their modern counterparts. I was, at one time, a stage magician. I know many of the methods that these folk use deceive their audiences, and they don't involve mystic powers.

"Do you believe Uri Geller can bend spoons with his mind?"

He was publicly debunked and humiliated. As a stage magician I learned to bend spoons, too, and it certainly doesn't require telekinesis!

"Do you really believe that the shroud of Turin has anything connected with Jesus?"

I'd like to meet the guy who faked it, but it hasn't a thing to do with my faith in Christ.

"Why should we accept a claim of a miracle without that evidence?"

You should _never_ accept the claim of a modern miracle without solid evidence, but the evidence for Biblical miracles is something that you have to accept by faith. And that's a very hard thing to come to grips with. The only way that you can find that sort of faith is to simply trust God to show you that He loves you and wants to be your father. Nothing less can help you learn through your own experience that the Biblical records are true. Sometimes, science discovers evidence that Biblical miracles really did occur like they were depicted in the Bible, but faith is the main thing that makes or breaks a relationship with God.

You can't depend on others to prove this to you, though sometimes you will find that God will use others to do something that He desires to be done for you. I can't begin to share with you how it felt to experience God's presence at the death of my first born daughter, Sarah, or how He helped us through the loss of our second child, Ben, and then through the loss of his sister, Rachel. Or how He kept me sane through the ten years of my wife's illness and then through the awful darkness of her death. Even now, nine years after my wife's death, I still wonder at how He keeps me going on day after another.

I know that this sounds terribly trite, "CL", but you simply have to trust Him in faith.

Don't let the failures of people turn you away from the opportunity to know that God cares for you and loves you dearly.
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"Local, Non-Redneck Reader" - well, I read this one and it's subsequent post, four times.

But, somehow I missed it's relevancy to the topic of Harry Potter!

- Mike Jackson

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BigJohn767
Member

Posts: 1424
From:Wrens, Ga., CSA
Registered: Sep 2000
posted 11-26-2001 10:40 AM
Harry Potter is a BOOK. It is about magic. It is NOT about religion or Christianity or Satanism. Would you ban Superman? After all, he can fly! Or how about stories about King Arthur and the Knights of the Round Table? They had Merlin! NEC used the Merlin character as a way to show people how to use a computer. He was a wizard. How about the TV show, "Sabrina, the Teenage Witch"? Or "I Dream of Jeanie" and "Bewitched"? Fantasy all.

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James
Junior Member

Posts: 33
From:
Registered: Oct 2001
posted 11-26-2001 01:20 PM
They are not going to address those books until their shepherd tells them too.
Once one of the 700 club loonies, or Falwell, or Graham tell them to, they will begin bleating on that topic. Until then, all you will get is the chewing of cud and blank looks of those who cannot or will not think for themselves.

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heddylamar
Junior Member

Posts: 2
From:Augusta, Georgia
Registered: Nov 2001
posted 11-26-2001 01:32 PM
Why are Southern religious nuts behaving like muggles? Because, oh my, their children might be *corrupted* by the occult! What a silly argument!

Were the Puritans behaving any differently from the Southern religious nuts when they persecuted the *witches* in Salem, Massachusets? No. They too were overreacting to non-Christian actions and beliefs.

Are Christians the only group allowed to be American citizens? No way! What do you think Ellis Island represents? A depot for collecting only Chirstian-believing immigrants?

Harry Potter and the Philosopher's Stone is a wonderfully fanciful story. As too were C.S. Lewis' the Witch and the Wardrobe, Madeline L'Engle's Wrinkle in Time and J.R.R. Tolkein's books. Should they all be banned from reading lists because they aren't about real times and places, and, certainly don't take place in a world parallel to ours? That would limit childrens' imagination. Do you want your children to grow up to be writers, journalists or artists? They cannot without being able to explore their vast imagination.

Protesting a book (and movie) that invites children tothink about the world's endless possibilities is just going to stunt their emotional and intellectual growth. Children are smart. They learn from example. If you want to teach your children that they can both think imaginatively and have morals let them read Harry Potter and other *occult* materials; then proceed to show them how to behave in society.

Books are not creators of evil. Bad examples and bad morals are.

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Valiantdancer
Junior Member

Posts: 61
From:Villa Park, IL, USA
Registered: Oct 2001
posted 11-26-2001 02:35 PM
Small correction, all the "witches" put to death in Salem were Christian. Likewise, during the "burning times" a great majority of those put to death were strangers, unpopular, or had a powerful rival. Even then, the body count was about 30,000.

link to research follows: http://www.cog.org/witch_hunt.html

The "burning times" refers to the period of 1550 - 1650 when most of the witch trials and executions occurred. This followed the publication and distribution of the "Malleus Maleficarum" in 1486.

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Valiant Dancer
Responding Wiccan

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dadnson
Junior Member

Posts: 27
From:
Registered: Oct 2000
posted 11-26-2001 08:33 PM
"BigJohn767" - you can find a rather interesting portrayal of Merlin in C.S. Lewis' SciFi trilogy that begins with his book "Out of The Silent Planet". Merlin appears as an important character in book #3, "That Hideous Strength".

-------
"James" - you've nailed one of the greatest and most serious problems with Christianity today. Believers make sheep look like Ivy League graduates!

In Hebrews 13:17, believers are instructed to "Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves:". This phrase from Scriptures is used almost exclusively to force believers to unquestionably follow and obey their church leadership without questioning said leadership.

A better and clearer translation of this phrase would be: "Rely upon them that rule over you, being convinced by their testimony that they are faithful, and voluntarily yield to their leadership:"

This falls back on the earlier context of the original passage, verses 7 & 8 of chapter 13, which state in reference to church leadership, "Remember them which have the rule over you... whose faith follow, considering the end of their conversation. Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and today, and for ever."

A better and clearer translation of this phrase would be: "Exercise and review your memories of the lives of those who have the rule over you... whose consistent testimony you should imitate, earnestly inspecting and reviewing their behavior and manner of life. Whose testimonies should reflect Jesus Christ, the same..."

So, together we end up with this sage bit of instruction from the writer of Hebrews (possibly the Apostle Paul):

"Rely upon them that rule over you, being convinced by your earnest inspection and review of your memories of their testimonies that they are faithful, their testimonies consistently reflecting Jesus Christ's own character. In your own lives, imitate their consistent testimonies and being convinced of their continued faithfulness, voluntarily yield yourselves to their leadership:"

This leaves a believer with the scriptural option of _not_ following a church leader should that leader's testimony not reflect the character of Jesus Christ. This is quite contrary to the generally accepted concept in churches today that you are to blindly and unquestionably obey and follow church leaders.

Believers should study the Scriptures, keep a close eye on the testimony of their leadership, and not ever accept an endorsement or condemnation from that leadership unless they are absolutely assured that they can trust their leadership, or, should they have any unanswered questions, until they have checked the topic out for themselves.

Or, they could still practice saying "Baaaaaa..."
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"heddylamar" - you stated "Why are Southern religious nuts behaving like muggles? Because, oh my, their children might be *corrupted* by the occult! What a silly argument!"

I disagree, it's not a silly argument. Having reviewed some of the occult books and literature available at stores like Barnes and Noble, for example, I have to believe that it is imperative that parents teach their children about the dangers of the lifestyles espoused by those who follow the occult practices.

Children are presented with two very powerful enticements. Sex and power. These enticements aren't even candy-coated, but presented as valid reasons to become involved in the occult. Some of the practices involved in following the occult are intensely self-centered, destructive to those around the practitioner, harmful to society, and even in some cases destructive to the practitioner themselves.

Are there authors that I will not allow my minor (important caveat there) child to read? Are there topics that he is forbidden to inquire on? Are there books that he is required to ask me to read first in order to check the content before he reads them? Does this also apply to movies and television programming? Yes, on all counts.

I am instructed by the Scriptures, and a healthy dose of common sense (!), to protect and guide my children until they are of age and completely responsible for their own lives and decisions. There are books that I do not allow myself to read, movies that I will not watch, and programming that will not be allowed for my own viewing. My son was not born able to tell the difference between what is good for him and what is not and what could be fatal to him. He learns that from my guidance and instruction as his parent.

You also wrote "Children are smart. They learn from example. If you want to teach your children that they can both think imaginatively and have morals let them read Harry Potter and other *occult* materials; then proceed to show them how to behave in society."

Children are smart, but that indicates only that they can learn quickly. What knowledge they are allowed to accumulate will help to determine who they become as adults. Wisdom is the ability to make sound and beneficial decisions. A person's knowledge base works toward helping them to make wise decisions.

Children are easily mislead, and it is only the careful guidance and testimony on the part of parents that will encourage them to grow up balanced and wise. If you allow a child to read and watch without some sort of protective guidance, they may find themselves confused, unsure of themselves and potentially in danger of personal destruction as adults.

You wrote "Books are not creators of evil. Bad examples and bad morals are."

Books create nothing, but they are a source of knowledge. Not all knowledge is good for the one finding it. Some knowledge can even bring death if the one finding it is unaware of it's potential. A good example and decent morals are fine, but it's the knowledge base that we allow our children to accumulate that will determine who they become as adults.

An old computer saying is "Garbage in, garbage out." Seems that it might be fitting to apply this to our children's and our own minds, as well.
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"Valiantdancer" - I have to disagree a little bit with you here. You wrote "... all the "witches" put to death in Salem were Christian."

I feel that it would be better to state that as far as the records that are available indicate, all of the victims of the witch killings in Salem were innocent of the occult crimes that they were convicted of and a few were executed for. Not all of the victims were believers.

You also wrote "Likewise, during the "burning times" a great majority of those put to death were strangers, unpopular, or had a powerful rival."

Religion can be a powerful evil force when led by corrupted leadership being influenced by human emotion and desire, instead of being led by leadership that fulfills the requirements that I stated above in my response to "BJ's" post.

There's also some questions related to the blind acceptance by authorities of the testimonies of children:

Witch-Children: The Myth of the Innocent Child
By Hans Sebald
Copyright © 1989-2001 by the Institute for Psychological Therapies.

"During those not-so-distant years vast numbers of children gave free rein to imagination and played back the image of the witch with such zeal that they substantially contributed to the persecution. Without any compunction did they denounce and bring to the stake uncounted..."

And the possibility of ergot poisoning:

Tom Volk's Fungus of the Month for October 1999
© Copyright 1999 by Thomas J. Volk, University of Wisconsin-La Crosse.

"So what does this all have to do with the Salem Witch trials, which took place near Salem Massachusetts in the late 1600's? There have been various attempts to explain those witch trials. None of them are more logical and interesting than the hypothesis of ergot poisoning..."

And of a few other possible causes (as well as a short synopsis of the entire Salem episode):

The History of Psychopathology
© Copyright 2001 Paul Gardner and Dr. Jason Frowley

In reference to Europe... "Between the 13th - 17th centuries hundreds of thousands, maybe millions of predominantly women were accused and killed of witchcraft. Eventually some monarchs realised it was impossible for the falsely accused to be freed and the Inquisitions were abolished in 17th - 18th century."

In reference to Salem... "Probably the most well-known case of witchcraft. Dec 1691, Salem, Cape Cod, Mass. Eight girls developed `distempers' - disordered speech, strange postures and gestures, hallucinations and delusions. They were believed to be possessed by the devil and accused of witchcraft. Theythemselves started to accuse others and by Dec the following year about 200 were awaiting trial, 19 had been sent to the gallows and one had been pressed to death. The girls were present at the trials and they often disturbed the proceedings by their violent fits and hallucinations. In May 1693, the Governor ordered a reprieve and the 150 awaiting trial were released. Much speculation has followed the cause of the behaviour of the 8 girls.

1) Schizophrenia - whist they were showing schizophrenic symptoms it is unlikely that all 8 would show them at the same time.
2) Mass hysteria
3) Ergot poisoning - a parasite that grows on rye cereal grains. The substance produces chemicals similar to LSD. When ingested it can cause headaches, hallucinations, delirium, mood changes, convulsions and a tingling sensation on the skin similar to being pricked."

[Notes from Mike: 1. It seems that weather conditions in the Salem area at that time may have been ripe for the development of the ergot fungus. 2. I personally believe in the existence of the believer's common enemy, Satan, and that demons (probably fallen angels) do exist and may sometimes influence or even possess human beings. Dr.'s Gardner and Frowley appear to disagree with this view and seem to indicate that they believe that "demon possession" is a facet of human psychology and not a spiritual matter at all.]

- Mike Jackson

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heddylamar
Junior Member

Posts: 2
From:Augusta, Georgia
Registered: Nov 2001
posted 11-27-2001 09:44 AM
dadnson -
My parents encouraged me to read anythign and everything. I was also allowed to watch horror and sci-fi flicks. I was also raised Catholic. Yes it is important to teach your children about the dangers of alternative lifestyles (you certainly wouldn't want to be raising a mass murderer or drug addict would you?) But, it's equally imperative to let your children find their own path in life. Do you live the life your parents built for you? Or did you build your own life? I can almost guarantee that you'd be happier in the latter, as would your children. Don't live their lives for them, do guide them. There's a big difference. If you teach your children right from wrong and discuss different lifestyles and beliefs with them they can make an informed decision. They can't make an informed decision if you never allow them that freedom.

I refer to the "Southern religious nuts" as such because of their need to see everythin through a blanket of "Christianity." But, I'm not so sure it is Christianity. Does the Bible say to persecute and circle your wagons every time an outside force or idea appears. Not that I recall, of course I don't spent my days quoting the Bible. Religion is a personal thing. It should be internalized rather than thrust into the face of everyone with an opposing viewpoint.


Thanks for the correction Valiant. I wasn't aware that the Salem *witches* were Christian, only that they were persecuted for being witches. That makes it even scarier -- the Puritans were killing their own brethren.

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Valiantdancer
Junior Member

Posts: 61
From:Villa Park, IL, USA
Registered: Oct 2001
posted 11-27-2001 10:17 AM
Mike,
I will refrain from commenting on those points of religion on which we disagree.
Mr. Gardner and Dr. Frowley's estimations of people killed during the witch hunts from 1300 - 1650 are based on some forged documents. These documents were only recently discovered to be forgeries. Any estimation of killed above 100,000 is unrealistic. As for the Ergot poisoning, I have heard of this condition and agree that the symptoms are as you describe. It could have well been a contributory factor in the histeria. There were some powerful individuals that used the histeria to settle old scores. The point being, the desired aim of the "burning times" was to wipe out the vestiges of the old religions. Most often, the innocent were killed. This is the function of zenophobia, psychedelic funguses, and the dark part of human nature that morality seeks to limit.

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Valiant Dancer
Responding Wiccan

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rotten2U
Member

Posts: 513
From:NYC, formerly Augusta
Registered: Aug 2001
posted 11-27-2001 01:12 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Local,Non-Redneck Reader:
Another excerpt from The Mysterious Stranger:

a God who could make good children as easily as bad... [deleted content]




No one dares to touch this one, huh? It would really be an experience to hear what the God-boys and girls would come up with in their attempts to refute the statements in this passage...


(Oh, wait, let me guess: God has a divine purpose for enslaving humans and treating them badly. We just don't know what it is until we die. And if we're really really good little boys and girls we will, in the end - *after* we kick, of course, be divinely rewarded for kissing God's big ole' smelly [bleep] all thru our lifes here on Earth. We have no proof that this is going to happen, we just have to take his word for it. Because, just like "Father" in the beloved 50's show, he knows best.


Am I close?)

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rotten2U
Member

Posts: 513
From:NYC, formerly Augusta
Registered: Aug 2001
posted 11-27-2001 01:23 PM
And why is it that in all those years since it's release, none of the *politically correct* forces have come forward to speak out against the popular movie "Home Alone"?


What kind of a message does it send that parents can just forget an eight-year-old and take off overseas and leave him to his own devices for several days?


To make things more realistic, these negligent parents could have at least found themselves with an army of social workers, accompanied by the police, of course, waiting for them upon their return. Instead all we get is a mushy, Christmas-y reunion scene. I mean, WHY are these parents not being properly punished for their negligence? *All* the children should have been taken away, and *if* they were ever returned, the family should have been monitored by the system for life. Don't you think so?


Oh, wait a minute. Those where *rich* people! They could have afforded a *lawyer*! The system only goes after *poor* parents. So the movie was realistic after all. Cancel my complaint. All is well.

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dadnson
Junior Member

Posts: 27
From:
Registered: Oct 2000
posted 11-27-2001 03:08 PM
"heddylamar" - you wrote "Don't live their lives for them, do guide them."

And I whole-heartedly agree. Proverbs 22:6 states "train (or "Start") a child in the way he should go, and when he is old ("of mature age") he will not turn from it."

The phrase "in the way he should go" isn't a license to force a child into the lifestyle of the parents choice, but refers to the best focus of the child's aptitudes, abilities and temperament. Yes, there will be some things that are "black and white". For example, teaching the basic tenets of the ten commandments; which, since Christ's death and resurrection, are no longer law, but are still good rules of behavior to espouse.

"I refer to the "Southern religious nuts"..." [sad chuckle] O, yes, and it's not just a "southern" thing. I use to be one of those fanatics, then God turned my life into a very dark and frightening place. trough that experience, I woke up to the reality of my faith in God.

"Religion is a personal thing. It should be internalized rather than thrust into the face of everyone with an opposing viewpoint."

I have to gently disagree with you here. Yes, I also believe that forcing anyone's faith into another's life is wrong. I've had a problem with Muslim extremists, for example, since September 11th. But, as in this forum topic, I can't divorce my faith from my views on Harry Potter, or some of the related topics that have been posted in this forum. So, you'll see Scripture quotes and other faith-related statements in my replies.


"That makes it even scarier -- the Puritans were killing their own brethren."

They still do it. They just don't go for physical executions as in the past. Now, mental torture, financial pressure and ostracism are the norm. Indeed sad.
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"Valiantdancer" - you wrote "I will refrain from commenting on those points of religion on which we disagree."

So cool. :O) It's a pleasure to converse with you without having to don the ol' Kevlar. [grin]

"Mr. Gardner and Dr. Frowley's estimations... are based on some forged documents."

Ah! I wasn't aware of this. Would you have a URL for the info on this topic?

"There were some powerful individuals that used the histeria to settle old scores."

Yes, it is both inherently wrong and totally base to use something intended for good, for evil selfish purposes.

"The point being, the desired aim... was to wipe out... the old religions."

And also, from a political point of view, you could say that the aim was to gain control of the populace and be the ruling elite.
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"rotten2U" - you wrote "No one dares to touch this one, huh? It would really be an experience to hear what the God-boys and girls would come up with in their attempts to refute the statements in this passage..."

I passed over the Mark Twain quotes for two reasons:

1. Because they had nothing to do with the topic that I started with "What'll We Do With Harry (Potter)?".

And 2. Because Mark Twain lived the end years of his life in bitter denial of his need for a relationship with God, and because he used this bitterness as fuel for his diatribes against God and religion:

"Mark Twain's Secret Vendetta with the Almighty"
By Gary Sloan
© Copyright 2001

"Only a handful of intimates knew this revered creator of Tom Sawyer, Becky Thatcher, and Huck Finn had died a bilious adversary of the Almighty. In his twilight years, Twain's volcanic pen belched ceaseless vitriol against his Maker. Spewed into letters, notebooks, essays, dialogues, autobiographical dictations, and sundry fragments, none of this uneven gallimaufry was published in his lifetime. This was gospel for the future."

"Am I close?)"

Nope! :O)

A few minutes ago you added...

"And why is it that in all those years since it's release, none of the politically correct forces have come forward to speak out against the popular movie "Home Alone"?

What kind of a message does it send that parents can just year old and take off overseas and leave him to his own devices for several days?"

Umm... that movie, along with movies like "Matilda", "Hook", and "Rugrats: The Movie", are all fantasy. No one is expecting reality in these types of movies, and for that matter, most folk go to movies just to get away from reality. For that matter, "Rugrats: The Movie" was even worse than "Home Alone" was!

What's happened with "Harry Potter" is that it's touched on a sensitive topic for some religious folk. They've forgotten that it's just fantasy and have taken up arms against something that, in most cases, their leadership is insisting is "of the devil" and in need of being denounced and opposed.

We've already seen some men, whom I personally consider to be great men of God, Dr. James Dobson and Chuck Colson, defamed by fanatical elements of the religious right simply because these two men and their ministries have taken conservative and supportive stands on the "Harry Potter" phenomenon.

BTW, "Focus on the Family", Dr. Dobson's ministry has a series of articles (both pro and con) on the Harry Potter issue available through their emag "pluggedin" at: "Harry Potter"

I have little doubt that sometime between now and the middle of January, I will become a target for these fanatics. This because of my involvement with supporting and promoting "Harry Potter" through our sales of the Harry Potter trading Card Game (TCG) and my running our store's Harry Potter TCG League. (The league starts up sometime in early January.)

I'm an avid modeler, especially in miniatures, and I fashioned a wand as a prop (with Psalm 16:11, our family's verse as it's "core".) I've purchased a pattern for a wizard's robe for myself, and I won't have a problem with the kids wearing Hogwarts' robes if they still have them left over from Halloween.

My plans are to strongly encourage the children to remember that the stories are just fantasy and fun. I will strongly discourage any focus on the occult (my apologies, "Valiantdancer", no offense intended.) And, I have yet to pass personal judgment on the last three of the books. Time will tell.

Frankly, there's not much more that these fanatics can do other than physically protesting at the store or physically attacking me or my family. They've already done just about everything else to us over the last couple of decades. You wouldn't believe some of the stunts that have been pulled in the name of Christ.

- Mike Jackson

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Valiantdancer
Junior Member

Posts: 61
From:Villa Park, IL, USA
Registered: Oct 2001
posted 11-27-2001 04:17 PM
Originally posted by dadnson:
"Mr. Gardner and Dr. Frowley's estimations... are based on some forged documents."

Ah! I wasn't aware of this. Would you have a URL for the info on this topic?


URL: "Witch Hunt"

My plans are to strongly encourage the children to remember that the stories are just fantasy and fun. I will strongly discourage any focus on the occult (my apologies, "Valiantdancer", no offense intended.)

No offense taken.

Parts of the occult are not part of my religion, either. (In particular those having to do with fourtune-telling as it is the pervue of charlitans.) I learned Palmistry and Tarot. All of the "readings" I did were very similar as well as those done by "professional" readers. The most general statements were thrown out and the subject (P.T. Barnum would have called them "marks" or "suckers") would fill in the rest. We all make decidions that change our future and render the "reading" invalid. (Christians call it "Free will")



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Valiant Dancer
Responding Wiccan

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Local,Non-Redneck Reader
Member

Posts: 1724
From:Augusta,Ga. U.S.A.
Registered: Sep 2000
posted 11-27-2001 04:38 PM
Originally posted by Mike:
Because Mark Twain lived the end years of his life in bitter denial of his need for a relationship with God, and because he used this bitterness as fuel for his diatribes against God and religion.

Mike, FYI, Twain spent the last thirty years of his life researching the history of Christianity & many other faiths. He wrote extensively on the subject, but unfortunately, upon his death his daughter & his editor did a very good job of censoring his best material, including his many anti-imperialist writings.

In citing this article you exhibit the pious, sanctimonious, attitude that you
"seem" to decry elsewhere. It's fiendishly ironic that you'd post an article written by an atheist.

Because you've suffered the loss of your loved ones I can understand "your" own obsessive devotion to your faith as evidenced by your frequent use of Biblical quotes. But, you're not the only one who has suffered such losses. Portraying Twain's rejection of the organized, institution of worship that constitutes the Christian faith as a bitter denial is a pathetic attempt on your part to justify your own immersion in your faith at the expense of a brillant debunker of human hypocrisy!

Your effort to silence him exposes your own fear of free speech. He didn't need a relationship with your God. Accept the fact.

Christians are still trying to censor the man 90 years after his death.

And for the record many of the footnotes cited are some of the most inciteful observations ever written on the subject. Some are brutally honest because they're based on reason & rationality, not fear of the hereafter. One of my favorites is that little gem What Is Man? He asks all of the right questions.

In my opinion, if more people of all beliefs were more concerned about the next generation to inhabit this earth than worrying about their own selfish odds of going to the hereafter life on this planet would dramatically improve.




[This message has been edited by Local,Non-Redneck Reader (edited 11-27-2001).]

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Michael Ledo
Member

Posts: 168
From:Windsor, SC
Registered: Dec 2000
posted 11-27-2001 08:03 PM
Can we get off the Harry Potter topic? I find myself in agreement with BigJohn on a topic and that makes me a bit uneasy.

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dadnson
Junior Member

Posts: 27
From:
Registered: Oct 2000
posted 11-28-2001 12:13 AM
"Valiantdancer" - Thank you for the link. I'll check it out a bit later as it's late in the evening and bed is looking very good at the moment.

You wrote "We all make decidions that change our future and render the "reading" invalid. (Christians call it "Free will")"

Sort of awe inspiring that we have such immense power at our fingertips, so to speak.
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"Local,Non-Redneck Reader" - you wrote "Mike, FYI, Twain spent the last thirty years of his life researching the history of Christianity & many other faiths..."

I know. I just see his research from a different perspective than you do.

"In citing this article you exhibit the pious, sanctimonious, attitude that you "seem" to decry elsewhere."

"Sanctimonious"? <chuckle> To quote Tweety, "He don't know me very well, do he?" I have no reason to be anything but a believer who is very glad that God takes care of fools, as I've aptly proven in my life too many times to count.

You stated "It's fiendishly ironic that you'd post an article written by an atheist."

And I should have quoted a _Christian_ source? I was hoping to show some impartiality in my use of sources.

"Because you've suffered the loss of your loved ones I can understand "your" own obsessive devotion to your faith as evidenced by your frequent use of Biblical quotes."

<LOL> Oh my! Now quoting Bible verses is an indication of "obsessive devotion" to one's faith. Obviously you've never met Reverend Ike of Philly fame. I am only obsessed with trying to behave in a manner that reflects Christ, and at the rate that I'm going, it's gonna be along haul...

"But, you're not the only one who has suffered such losses."

No kidding?

"Portraying Twain's rejection of the organized, institution of worship that constitutes the Christian faith as a bitter denial is a pathetic attempt on your part to justify your own immersion in your faith at the expense of a brillant debunker of human hypocrisy!"

You wrote "... is a pathetic attempt on your part to justify your own immersion in your faith..." Whoa there, Pardner, I was just passing along the views of someone who happens to agree with my own views of Mr. Twain's life. I don't need your views or anyone else's, including Mr. Twain's, to justify my own faith in God.

Some folk like me personally, and some don't. I'm not going to lose sleep worrying about the opinions of the ones who'd eat dirt before they'd say something kind about me. Besides, Mr. Twain is more aware of what the facts are, at the moment, than any of us.

"Your effort to silence him exposes your own fear of free speech. He didn't need a relationship with your God. Accept the fact."

What? Silence him? Fear free speech? Hmm... I think that you don't know me very well, at all. I served in the armed forces, and would have gladly died defending your right to declare your own opinions as much as for my own right to disagree with you. Accept that Mr. Twain refused a relationship with God? Why? It was his life, not mine. All I can do is look at what he wrote and wonder why his writings were so bitter on the topic.

"Christians are still trying to censor the man 90 years after his death."

Not the believers that I hang with. Besides, then I'd have to get rid of my copies of "Huck Finn" and "Tom Sawyer"... [grin]

"In my opinion, if more people of all beliefs were more concerned about the next generation to inhabit this earth than worrying about their own selfish odds of going to the hereafter life on this planet would dramatically improve."

And why would those two purposes be exclusive of one another? As far as I can tell from the Scriptures, believers are strongly admonished to do both. Which is where this forum started, founded in order to discuss the topic of "Harry Potter" and it's affects on the children entranced by the phenomenon. I answered your post on the topic of Mr. Twain's views of God because I felt that it was the polite thing to do, as you took the time to comment in this forum.

Now, I think that it might be time to get back to our original discussion.
-------

"Michael Ledo" wrote "Can we get off the Harry Potter topic? I find myself in agreement with BigJohn on a topic and that makes me a bit uneasy."

Anyone who is finding this topic uncomfortable is welcome to leave, no hard feelings felt or projected from this source.

As for myself, I'd like to stick around for a while and see if any of my more... ah... "devoted" brothers and sisters stumble on this forum, as the world at large seems have very little problem with the writings of Ms. Rowling.

- Mike Jackson

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KittyLover_2001
Member

Posts: 582
From:Living *in* Richmond County
Registered: Oct 2001
posted 11-28-2001 01:24 AM
[QUOTE]Originally posted by dadnson:
And I should have quoted a _Christian_ source? I was hoping to show some impartiality in my use of sources.

LNRR is no way "impartial" let alone unbiased on his viewpoints. Attempts to get him to be less militant goes nowhere.

Beware: LNNR likes to play the sympathy card. But it's more for shoring up his agenda, than being sympathetic (let alone empathetic).

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dadnson
Junior Member

Posts: 29
From:
Registered: Oct 2000
posted 11-29-2001 08:56 AM
"KittyLover_2001" - you wrote concerning "impartiality & agendas".

I took the precaution of reviewing some of the posts in other forum topics by both LNNR & Mr. Ledo. I'm not surprised by their views or responses, nor that they would bring them into this topic where the emphasis is actually intended to be the effect of the Harry Potter phenomenon on our community's children.

Thank you. :O)

- Mike Jackson

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Michael Ledo
Member

Posts: 204
From:Windsor, SC
Registered: Dec 2000
posted 11-29-2001 05:49 PM
quote:
Originally posted by dadnson:
"KittyLover_2001" - you wrote concerning "impartiality & agendas".

I took the precaution of reviewing some of the posts in other forum topics by both LNNR & Mr. Ledo. I'm not surprised by their views or responses, nor that they would bring them into this topic where the emphasis is actually intended to be the effect of the Harry Potter phenomenon on our community's children.

Thank you. :O)

- Mike Jackson



I notice Christians tend to use ad hominem when they can't deal with facts and ideas.

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Local,Non-Redneck Reader
Member

Posts: 1862
From:Augusta,Ga. U.S.A.
Registered: Sep 2000
posted 11-29-2001 06:12 PM
riginally posted by dadson:
posted 11-29-2001 8:56 AM
"KittyLover_2001" - you wrote concerning "impartiality & agendas".
I took the precaution of reviewing some of the posts in other forum topics by both LNNR & Mr. Ledo. I'm not surprised by their views or responses, nor that they would bring them into this topic where the emphasis is actually intended to be the effect of the Harry Potter "phenomenon" on our community's children.

Thank you. :O) smile wink wink

- Mike Jackson

The emphasis is on what you represent: which appears to be the merchandising of Harry Potter. That is what you're selling, is it not?

I bet Mike despetrately wishes those fundies would boycott his establishment. It would generate free publicity & sales.

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dadnson
Junior Member

Posts: 29
From:
Registered: Oct 2000
posted 11-30-2001 09:07 AM
"Michael Ledo" wrote "I notice Christians tend to use ad hominem when they can't deal with facts and ideas."

Yes. At times, believers, as well as teenagers and countless other folk do tend to do that. :O)

However, my researching your personal views on religion and commenting here on how they may be affecting your participation in this forum was not "ad hominem", "appealing to personal considerations rather than to logic or reason". In the Editorial Forum topic, "Bible Riots", by yourself, Michael Ledo (date/time stamped 11-11-2001, 10:11 AM), you wrote:

"To me belief in God is a psychological illness, not religion."

Based on what you state rather clearly in this quote, your personal views are apparently filtered through your belief that all believers in religion are... well... to put it bluntly, "nuts". I thought this important and took it into consideration while reading and interpreting your views on the Harry Potter" issue in this forum.

My comments in reference to you and "LNNR" are based on facts gathered through both your and "LNNR"'s posts to the Chronicle forums. I surmised from both your posts and "LNNR"'s, that you both enjoy baiting, and sometimes attacking those who profess some sort of faith in religion.

I also surmised that you may have suffered greatly at the hands of the religious, "Mike", so I'm not surprised by your attacks here. I'm a long way from being the "ideal" believer, but I know that I'm His regardless of my failings because I believe in His promises. If that makes me a fool, a "nut", in your eyes, then I am a fool for Christ's and for your sake, and do not choose be otherwise.

- Mike Jackson
-------
"Local,Non-Redneck Reader" - you may have done this inadvertently, but your reply included a breach of forum etiquette. You altered the text in my reply to this forum, in your own reply, to read:

"Thank you. :O) smile wink wink"

There was no "smile wink wink" in my original reply. The smilie that I included with the "thank you" was included only to highlight my mutual agreement with "KittyLover_2001"'s post to the Harry Potter" forum.

You wrote: "The emphasis is on what you represent: which appears to be the merchandising of Harry Potter. That is what you're selling, is it not?

Assuming that you wrote "selling" to mean my purpose in starting this forum topic, no. The theme here is how the religious right is opposing the "Harry Potter" phenomenon and possibly hurting our community's children in the process. I purposed to let the community know of our store's support of their families' interests, with a secondary purpose of giving the religious right a target that might be able to effectively fight back, "with tooth and claw" so to speak.

I've been on both sides of the fence that separates believers from those they persecute, and I am well aware of the unconfessed sins that believers harbor under the guise of religious "sanctity". The children, and most of their parents, don't have this "edge", and if God permits, I might be in a position to wake some of my brothers and sisters up to their hypocrisy while attempting to protect the children from the inappropriate religious zeal of the religious right.

You also wrote: "I bet Mike despetrately wishes those fundies would boycott his establishment. It would generate free publicity & sales."

"fundies"? [chuckle] Actually, no. As the "fundies" are already boycotting our store for other reasons, the only things that we've gotten from the opposition of the religious right are lost sales and a damaged reputation. Entire church bodies of men have stopped patronizing our store because a leader in their organization, usually a pastor or Bible study leader, has decided that a particular line of merchandise that we carry is "of the devil".

They give no consideration for the positive impact that we have in the community and through our community's schools. They seem to overlook the benefits of having men, single and married, interested in frequenting our establishment rather than the drinking scene. They fail to imagine the impact of weekend R/C fly-ins or car racing on church property, model rocketry gatherings or of the educational opportunities offered by our Science and Craft department. Pine Car Racing and Pine Boat Sailing are not the only hobbies that lend themselves to church activities.

Interestingly enough, we do see a lot of business from local families who home-school their children, an issue strongly endorsed and promoted by the religious right.

However, to date, only one local religious leader has come in to discuss these issues with the management. No other religious leader in the community has offered any sort of solution to the issues that they have with a few of our product lines. This is a bit of the hypocrisy mentioned in my statements above. And until just recently, they had the perfect opportunity to do this for more than a year. God set things up for them, gave them great opportunity to encourage change and to see results, to honor their beliefs, and they failed to act.

While news coverage of any sort of protest could be termed "free publicity" for the object of the protest, we don't need or want their continued opposition to "generate free publicity & sales".

Colloquially speaking, we work our butts off in other areas to obtain the lowest cost advertising. My purposes here are to support our community's families and their children, and possibly, to offer the religious right what they enjoy the most, a human target as the focus of their opposition rather than just an issue or object. As I stated in my 3rd response to this topic:

"Frankly, there's not much more that these fanatics can do other than physically protesting at the store or physically attacking me or my family. They've already done just about everything else to [my family] over the last couple of decades. You wouldn't believe some of the stunts that have been pulled in the name of Christ."

I'm afraid that I simply overlooked other possible avenues of opposition. Thank you for the reminder to broaden my expectations a bit. :O)

- Mike Jackson

PS. A "Happy 166th Birthday" today for Mr. Samuel Langhorne Clemens (Mark Twain.)

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bigfeetedme
Member

Posts: 506
From:
Registered: Aug 2001
posted 11-30-2001 09:57 AM
quote:
Originally posted by dadnson:
"I've been on both sides of the fence that separates believers from those they persecute, and I am well aware of the unconfessed sins that believers harbor under the guise of religious "sanctity"...

You wouldn't believe some of the stunts that have been pulled in the name of Christ."


That sounded familiar. Where does Christianity teach this type of behaviour? I believe that Jesus taught that we should not judge but yet the very most dedicated to him do so with a vengence, which is also supposed to belong to Lord according to the Bible.

One of the things that I have noticed with any of my friends or associates that have recently become converted back into their faith is the slow but sure attitude that they get about reading materials and the internet. It too of course is the work of the devil and oddly enough the very ones I hear that from use it a lot.

I think I may have said this before but I cannot help but say it again. I never believed in Satan but am starting to and my thoughts on that are that he flourishes and thrives mostly in organized religion. Where else can you demand that all these rules be followed to the letter, judge everyone who doesn't, yet do it yourself and basically abuse others who think differently and feel good about it all as you are professing to be doing it all in the name of God? How utterly hypocritically ridiculous.

Another really sad consequence of the whole 9/11 event is that now these folks seem to be crawling out of the woodwork to bless us all with their BS. Oh yes it all happened because we took prayer out of school. That is the only plausable reason that they can come up with and that is all just being said to further their freaky agenda.

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Michael Ledo
Member

Posts: 204
From:Windsor, SC
Registered: Dec 2000
posted 11-30-2001 08:34 PM

"To me belief in God is a psychological illness, not religion."

Based on what you state rather clearly in this quote, your personal views are apparently filtered through your belief that all believers in religion are... well... to put it bluntly, "nuts". I thought this important and took it into consideration while reading and interpreting your views on the Harry Potter" issue in this forum.


I never said God believers are "nuts". There are many mental illnesses that would not classify one as "nuts". My opinion was shaped by a paper I read by a "nut" doctor in Minnesota. He made comparisons between god belief and that of a child's need for an imaginary friend. It is a crutch for adults who can not handle the reality that death is final.

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dadnson
Junior Member

Posts: 29
From:
Registered: Oct 2000
posted 11-30-2001 10:25 PM
"bigfeetedme" wrote "That sounded familiar. Where does Christianity teach this type of behaviour? I believe that Jesus taught that we should not judge but yet the very most dedicated to him do so with a vengence, which is also supposed to belong to Lord according to the Bible."

Hi "bigfeetedme". Actually, this behavior isn't taught in the Scriptures. I believe that it's the sort of effect that leadership can have on a group when it doesn't include having to answer to your followers. The Scriptures teach that believers are to judge others as in "to form an opinion or estimation of after careful consideration", but admonished to _not_ judge others as in "to pass sentence on, to condemn."

Believers tend to forget this difference rather easily, though I think that this is a human failing in general and not something specific to just believers. We're supposed to watch our leadership, for example, and to judge whether or not they are faithful to God and in their responsibilities to their families and to the group that they lead. We're admonished to judge ourselves in the same manner, and to do the same to determine the spiritual condition of another believer.

However, unless one is in law enforcement or a judicial position, judging someone as in "to pass sentence on, to condemn" is a no-no for believers except for one issue. Let's say that there is a believer who is knowingly practicing something that is clearly determined by the Scriptures to be sin, and they refuse to stop the behavior after proper confrontation by other believers. Then it's permissible for the group of believers that they meet with to judge their behavior and to carry out an appropriate response (usually being turned out of the group until the behavior is stopped.)

Unfortunately, every religious group has it's own modifications and "add-ons" for the simple rules that God set down for believers to follow in the Scriptures. Which means that a lot of believers are wrongly accused and punished for inappropriate reasons. Families are hurt and their children live through events that are inappropriate in most cases, and positively unspeakable in others.

Leadership _must_ be answerable to the followers. If the leadership is not answerable to its followers, any topic can become a new "no-no" as soon as that leadership condemns it. It doesn't matter whether it's "Harry Potter", celebrating a holiday, eating a certain food, buying a certain product or patronizing a particular business. As soon as the condemned item hits the infamous "Black List of Hell(ish thingummies)" and is announced on Sunday morning, it's instantly condemned by thousands of sheepish followers who cry "Baaaaaaa!" and simply follow the goat wherever he/she leads them.

You wrote "I think I may have said this before but I cannot help but say it again. I never believed in Satan but am starting to and my thoughts on that are that he flourishes and thrives mostly in organized religion."

I believe that he exists, and while I know that the Scriptures teach that he pretty much has sovereign control of the Earth for a limited time, I personally think that he does particularly well at working through religions. Makes sense for him to take this route, as it gives him a positively keen edge for keeping believers spiritually impotent, and to make God look like He's nothing but a believer's fantasy.

I also wrote about the things that you mentioned in your post, "bigfeetedme", the hypocrisy of believers and of their leadership, in my opening post to this forum topic and in my first reply (my second post.) Please feel free to read them through again, and to ask any questions related to my comments.
-------

"Michael Ledo" wrote "To me belief in God is a psychological illness, not religion." and
"[Religion] is a crutch for adults who can not handle the reality that death is final."

[Off-topic, no comment.]

- Mike Jackson

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dadnson
Junior Member

Posts: 29
From:
Registered: Oct 2000
posted 12-05-2001 01:01 AM
Interestingly enough, the movie is still going strong despite the protests of the Religious Right. Possibly the outcry is going the route of the Pokémon protests of time past.

- Mike Jackson

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bigfeetedme
Member

Posts: 506
From:
Registered: Aug 2001
posted 12-05-2001 02:10 AM
quote:
Originally posted by dadnson:
Interestingly enough, the movie is still going strong despite the protests of the Religious Right. Possibly the outcry is going the route of the Pokémon protests of time past.

- Mike Jackson




Please do not put a well written storybook on the same level with Pokemon. I did not encourage the Pokemon thing with my son as I saw it as a money grab and as a most competitive and fierce one at that. Maybe I did not understand the whole Pokemon deal that well but what I did see of it was children learning the skill of acquisition and then displaying to others their wealth in Pokemon items. I saw a lot of fits and manipulation of parents to get their desires met towards their Pokemon wealth too. To me there is a huge difference.

Reading is the most wonderful experience a child can be given while collecting something to brag about doesn't seem to build the kind of character that I find becoming to a child who should be enjoying life rather than being taught about obtaining items through manipulation. It never failed that the biggest brats who were the most spoiled had the whole set to show their friends.

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dadnson
Junior Member

Posts: 29
From:
Registered: Oct 2000
posted 12-05-2001 10:08 AM
"bigfeetedme" wrote "Please do not put a well written storybook on the same level with Pokémon."

My apologies for a miscommunication. My intent was an emphasis on the level of the activity and outcry against HP, as compared to the same response that the Religious Right had to the Pokémon phenomenon. I've no intent to make or infer a direct comparison between HP and Pokémon.

Since I am in charge of our store's children's TCG (trading Card Game) activities, Pokémon became my life for about two years. (Thankfully, the Pokémon thing in our area is nearly dead!) Besides the obvious problems with Pokémon that you stated, "acquisition" and "displaying... wealth ", the mechanic of the game was flawed for Western children. ("Game mechanic" is the actual working process that a player uses to play a game.)

Pokémon is a game designed for children from an Eastern culture, Japan's. In order to make the game playable for Western children, they sort of "transliterated" the cards and the game mechanic into something usable in a Western culture scenario. Totally weird result.

Not so with the Harry Potter TCG, as the game was designed for Western children from the ground up. It plays well, and does far better than Pokémon at exercising (Western) children's minds.

The story lines and themes in the Pokémon show, books, comics and movies involved a lot of cultural ideas and mind sets that are unique to the Japanese. Some of them totally foreign to our own Western culture. Some of the dialogue, and even some complete show episodes themselves had to be either heavily modified before broadcast here, or removed completely from the show schedule because of unreconciled differences between our own culture and that of the Japanese.

"I did not encourage the Pokémon thing with my son as I saw it as a money grab and as a most competitive and fierce one at that."

I allowed my son to participate, but then again, I'm one of those "hands-on" sort of fathers. I was on top of his participation during the entire time that I ran the Pokémon league at our store. The really sad part of the whole Pokémon issue is that it is _not_ a collectable TCG in Japan! There were very few players/collectors in Japan that collected the cards like the folks here did. Cards that were selling for $200.00 here in the States were being thrown out by players in Japan.

In Japan, Pokémon is a _game_, first and foremost. Japanese children actually look down on Western children because of their fervor to collect the cards. In Japan, the children trade cards simply because someone else has a card that they need in order to play the game better.

When Pokémon was brought to the States, it was altered into a TCG that emphasized the value of the cards based on their rarity, something that was not done in Japan. I would hazard an educated guess that the ol' "Money is Everything" syndrome kicked in and Nintendo saw a fast buck coming.

But no one buying the cards seemed to realize that anything "collectable" is valuable only because there are just a few of them still around. It'll take 50 to 100 years to clear out enough of the Pokémon cards in folk's closets to make the remaining cards worth anything significant.

"I saw a lot of fits and manipulation of parents to get their desires met towards their Pokémon wealth too."

Dear Lord, I saw so much that made my heart ache. It got to where I would not allow kids, coming in to buy Pokémon cards with their parents, to buy the cards if they were disrespectful to their folks. No kidding. If they refused to treat Mom or dad with respect, I 'd turn to the parent and say something along the lines of "I'm on your side in this, do you want the cards, or do we take the kid out back and hose 'em down?"

Of course, this is at a hobby shop with a sign on the front door showing the black silhouette of a fellow at a barbecue, with the text "Shoplifters will be killed and eaten." next to the picture. Gross, but it gets folk's attention on the way into the store.

"Reading is the most wonderful experience a child can be given..."

I will forever appreciate my parents' belief in this principle, and for how they put books into my hands even before I could read them.

"It never failed that the biggest brats who were the most spoiled had the whole set to show their friends."

Who probably "stole" the best cards from other kids by unfair trading. I am fairly strict about the children in our store's TCG leagues trading any TCG cards. During a league meeting, the kids are allowed one trade, only during the official trading period during the meeting. Using value charts that I maintain for the league, the value of the cards on both sides of the trade must be within a dollar of each other, or no trade. And the kids are restricted to just one trade per meeting.

I also limit the ages of the children participating in the league to a group that includes ages 8 to 15 yo. Anything younger usually brings in problems with children too young to play the game well enough to participate successfully in a group setting, and anything older brings in teens and adults that tend to rip off the younger children.

And, frankly, my own child is _not_ sitting down to play a game with a 40 yo stranger. No way. It's bad enough that families seem to have to dodge the occasional strangely-acting person at some of the local book stores. I'm not promoting something that opens our children up to that sort of threat.

BTW, as a note in favor of the local book stores, Borders, over in the Target shopping center, has a very alert and professional security team, as well as a top notch video surveillance system. They also have managers that care a lot for our kids. I've seen very little in the way of inappropriate publications ending up in and staying in sections of the store reserved for children. I've also seen less in the way of suspicious characters "lurking" there, too. Kudos to Borders.

- Mike Jackson

[This message has been edited by dadnson (edited 12-06-2001).]

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BigJohn767
Member

Posts: 1472
From:Wrens, Ga., CSA
Registered: Sep 2000
posted 12-05-2001 10:57 AM
quote:
Originally posted by bigfeetedme:

...Reading is the most wonderful experience a child can be given...



Amen.

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dadnson
Junior Member

Posts: 29
From:
Registered: Oct 2000
posted 12-18-2001 12:34 AM
I had an interesting, yet disappointing, experience tonight at a local WalMart.

While in the checkout line and waiting for our turn, I noticed that the checkout person was trying to do an efficient job and still give each customer a nice send-off with "Have a Blessed Christmas."

Come our turn, the checkout person paused to read the "Harry Potter" ad tag on my work shirt (as ref. before, I work in a hobby store.) After recognizing the tag as being related to "Harry Potter", the employee then said "I bind...." and cut off in mid sentence. I was fairly sure what the employee had intended to say, so I replied politely with "Excuse me? What did you say?", in order to see if the employee would continue.

The employee (wisely, I think) declined, and continued to check us through the line. But, the employee seemed to make it clear by body language that we weren't going to get that "Have a Blessed Christmas.", and we didn't. So, I leaned in casually, made eye contact and said politely "Have a Merry Christmas." The employee then replied neutrally with "Oh... have a Blessed Christmas."

I would think that the "I bind..." was probably supposed to continue on something like "I bind thee, Satan..." or I bind thee in the name of Jesus Christ..." or something along those lines. Maybe not, but I'd been that soaked in my own religion at one time (note, not "faith", a big difference) and I recognized the situation and response.

I wasn't personally offended, you get that sort of thing eventually if you advertise anything related to "Harry Potter", but I wasn't happy with someone who appeared to be claiming kinship with Christ being that rude to someone that they did not know. I imagined if this had happened to a person, who is "lost" (without Christ, my faith's position, no offense intended), who is also much in favor of the "Harry Potter" phenomenon. The checkout person's act of religion (however innocent) could have resulted in offending the lost person to the point of them never acknowledging their need for salvation through Christ.

Maybe it's a good thing that the employee targeted me instead of another person. However, WalMart does sell a lot of Harry Potter-related merchandise, and it may not be long before the wrong person is targeted for a "binding".

Not exactly the sort of mark that a believer should want on their "Heavenly Record", so to speak.

Another point is that, by offending someone (other than myself) who might have taken great offense at the employee's words and actions, this employee could have been the cause for legal action against WalMart. While I'm sure that WalMart has their employees' best interests in mind, they may not be too thrilled with an employee allowing personal religious convictions to adversely affect their treatment of customers.

On our way out of the exit doors my son asked what had happened, and a bit angry by this time with the potential disaster that the employee's actions could have precipitated, I said to my son "She nearly lost her job, that's what she did." Bit my tongue at that slippage (I'm a bit deaf and I tend to forget that I'm using conversational levels when private conversation is more desirable), and then explained to my son why I was angry while we walked out to our vehicle.

I did talk to a WalMart manager about the incident before leaving, but I was very careful not to appear upset or offended by the employee's actions, and I was extremely careful not to give them any indication of which checkout employee I was referring to. I did not want the employee singled out for possible disciplinary action.

Being in retail, one tends to want to help other retailers to avoid problems common to the industry (at least I do, call me "crazy".) The CSM that I spoke to was quite concerned, and indicated that the topic would be brought to the other managers and then to the employees.

Here's hoping that my brothers and sisters in Christ, and those who simply profess to be in Christ, will use a large helping of common sense and courtesy in their opposition to the "Harry Potter" phenomenon.

- Mike Jackson

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Gura666
Junior Member

Posts: 66
From:
Registered: Dec 2001
posted 12-18-2001 01:42 PM
walmart blows chunks dude. no they dont have their employees best interst at heart. when there employees pause a minute to chat with a fellow worker they can get fired for something called timetheft. straight from orwell no? how people can work like that is beyond this old hippie. not groovy. i would have to rebel. ssi rocks. crush rocks and snort through straw. groovy.

------------------
"When you have a gura on your ass following you around to cast something sour at you, you tend to be a tad on edge."
-macdann

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dadnson
Junior Member

Posts: 29
From:
Registered: Oct 2000
posted 12-19-2001 03:50 PM
"Gura" wrote: "walmart blows chunks dude. no they dont have their employees best interst at heart. when there employees pause a minute to chat with a fellow worker they can get fired for something called timetheft. straight from orwell no?..."

Actually, no.

A business runs on its bottom line. When an employee steps outside of the guidelines set up by an employer, guidelines agreed to by the employee's acceptance of their position with the business that hired them, their action may result in a response from the employer. And sometimes the result is the loss of an employee's job position.

I know all of this from personal experience both as an employee, and as an employer.

Chatting with a customer in the hobby industry bolsters sales, increases public relations, and eventually increases the bottom line. Chatting with another employee does none of those things. It actually decreases the bottom line because it keeps employees from interacting with the customers, takes away from an employee's ability to monitor the sales floor, and generally prevents employees from taking proper care of their other job-related responsibilities.

"The bottom line!" one says, "That's all businesses think about!" Well, think about it. What gives a business the wherewithal to underwrite an employee's paycheck? To provide benefits? To remain an open and viable business in order to provide continuing job opportunities for the employees? Yep, it's that nasty ol' "bottom line" thingy.

I'm in my forties, and three and a half decades ago the work ethic was a lot different. You may not have liked your job or your boss, but you worked hard, stayed respectful to the management, and, frankly, you managed to keep your job. Today's young folk seem to be of the mind that it's a privilege for an employer to hire them, and that an employer should be mindful that the employee is "in charge".

That's fine, and works well, if the company in question has no plans to actually succeed and remain in business. It's madness, and leads to disaster, if that business plans on growing and making a profit.

Being hired by a business means that you give up a little of your personal freedom. It's really not much different than a parent/child relationship. You "grow" with the company and prove your mettle, trustworthiness and hard-working attitude, and you get back more freedom from the business in the way of promotion and authority over other employees. It doesn't hurt that sometimes that can also be accompanied by an increase in pay and benefits. (... and, yes, I know that some businesses treat their employees roughly or unfairly.)

But...

If an employee is wasting company time (time that the employee gets paid to perform job-related responsibilities), then they have every right to expect some sort of disciplinary response from the company that hired them. And some companies are very strict about how much leeway that they provide to employees, and in how they respond with disciplinary action.

The point in my relating the story about the incident at WalMart was because this incident involved the "Harry Potter" phenomenon and that, in voicing their opposition, a person professing to be a Christian was both rude and in violation of generally accepted business practices. I included it in this forum as an example of how some folk professing to be believers can allow their personal beliefs and/or preferences in relation to "Harry Potter" to interfere with their job-related responsibilities.

And in this particular case, I felt that some real spiritual harm could have been done had the incident involved someone other than my family and myself.

- Mike Jackson

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Michael Ledo
Member

Posts: 260
From:Windsor, SC
Registered: Dec 2000
posted 12-21-2001 05:25 AM
Having seen Harry Potter, I thought it was an excellent movie. It was shear delight. It taught children all the right values in life: hard work, team work, value of friendship, love, courage, respect of elders, and not to prejudge. Parents can keep children from seeing the movie now, but what are they going to do when all the other kids on the block have it on video? Their child will see it then and think their parents are wackos to keep them from this movie.

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dadnson
Junior Member

Posts: 37
From:
Registered: Oct 2000
posted 12-22-2001 11:15 AM
"Michael Ledo" wrote - "Having seen Harry Potter, I thought it was an excellent movie. It was shear delight. It taught children all the right values in life: hard work, team work, value of friendship, love, courage, respect of elders, and not to prejudge. Parents can keep children from seeing the movie now, but what are they going to do when all the other kids on the block have it on video? Their child will see it then and think their parents are wackos to keep them from this movie."

I agree that the movie was a great treat to see. While a few times (as in the books) Harry and his friends broke the rules without consequences, for the most part the movie taught great values. (We've seen it 3 times.)

You might be surprised at the lengths that some believers will go to prevent their children from seeing the movie. While our own personal standards are not quite as strict, we still have a prohibition for my own son about friend's homes and movies rated PG-13 and above. It's a trust thing, as it would be ludicrous to try to monitor my child's viewing while at another's home. For the most part my son has done surprisingly well at honoring our agreement. Kudos to him!

The prohibition concerning PG-13 extends to myself, too, but occasionally I do preview select PG-13 movies to see if they're appropriate for our viewing (and if it gets unacceptable, it gets turned off.) Mostly trying to avoid gratuitous sexual content and inappropriate language. We've got the rating filter on our home viewing set to PG and below, which helps, except for TNT, TBS and a couple of other stations that do not use the rating system.

For believers, the greater concern should be what their children see on the TV at home. While I won't go to the length that some believers go, no TV in the house at all, I am careful with what we watch. The rating filter helps, but it works mostly on movies and not other types of broadcasting. You might even be surprised at the content of some cartoons. Japanese animation, especially.

It's really finding a balance that's the question. No one would deny the impact that news coverage had during the September 11th attacks, or that (in spite of the inane manner in which news services step on their own feet trying to out-do each other) most Americans became a part of the drama and pathos as events unfolded. For a family's safety's sake it became imperative to keep up with the latest news related to the attacks and the aftermath. Besides the news and weather services, there's other programming that's certainly appropriate for the family.

The trick is to practice moderation with the "boob tube" as with all things. Viewing is nice, but books and the outdoors are really much better for the kids.

And personally, I think that "Harry Potter" isn't the demonspawn that a lot of believers are teaching their children that it is. Parents need to be much more concerned with the current run of TV series involving witchcraft, that use sex and power to entice young teens to consider getting involved in the occult. A far cry from the messages contained within the "Harry Potter" stories.

A somewhat related note: Considering the Scripture-related themes woven into the Lord of the Rings stories by Mr. Tolkien, it will be interesting to see the response of believers in relation to that recently released movie as compared to the "Harry Potter" movie.

- Mike Jackson

[This message has been edited by dadnson (edited 12-22-2001).]

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dadnson
Junior Member

Posts: 37
From:
Registered: Oct 2000
posted 12-27-2001 10:39 PM
CNN.com./Entertainment
December 27, 2001 Posted: 1:51 PM EST (1851 GMT) "Church plans Harry Potter book-burning"

"Church plans Harry Potter book-burning"

ALAMOGORDO, New Mexico, (Reuters) -- A New Mexico church plans to burn Harry Potter books because they are "an abomination to God," the church pastor said Wednesday.

Pastor Jack Brock said he would have a "holy bonfire" on Sunday at the Christ Community Church in Alamogordo in southern New Mexico to torch books about the fictional teen-age wizard who's wildly popular with young people.

"These books encourage our youth to learn more about witches, warlocks and sorcerers, and those things are an abomination to God and to me," Brock, 74, told Reuters.

"Harry Potter books are going to destroy the lives of many young people."

The books, written by British author J.K. Rowling, have been runaway bestsellers and the first of a planned seven films, "Harry Potter and the Sorcerer's Stone," is currently a blockbuster hit.

Brock, who said his Christmas Eve sermon was titled "The Baby Jesus or Harry Potter?," described the book burning as part of an effort to encourage Christians to remove everything from their homes that prevents them from communicating with God.

The books have come under fire in a few United States communities for supposedly encouraging devilish thoughts among the young, but Rowling in an earlier statement issued by her publisher, Bloomsbury, has called the criticisms absurd.

© 2001 Cable News Network LP, LLLP.
An AOL Time Warner Company. All Rights Reserved.
-------

Well, it begins... again...

I find it ironic that a pastor will presumably encourage folk to obtain the books just in order to burn them. I'll set aside the (hopefully) absurd thought that the believers at that church are expected to steal the books
for the burning, but someone has to buy the books in order to provide fuel for the fire.

No pastor in his right mind, read "spiritually mature", is going to encourage folk to financially support the very thing that he's personally obsessed about (now that's a thought.) Someone has to buy those books, so
it will be interesting to see if there will be enough books in the fire for this pastor and his flock to toast marshmallows with.

I spoke today with a local pastor about this muggle mayhem in New Mexico. He was of the mind that there are much more important things in life for pastors, and the believers that they lead, to set their minds to affecting.

There are worse things in this world that threaten children than Ms. Rowling's books, or J.R.R. Tolkien's Ring books or C. S. Lewis' Narnia books. Said books, if this pastor has any integrity, he will include in his
burning love for stamping out "magical" threats to children. Hypocrisy comes in many flavors. The "Flavor of the Month" for mislead believers appears to be Ms. Rowling's "Harry Potter".

Harry is "the boy who lived". I think that he'll survive a few books burning. If nothing else, this fire frenzy will help to provide a generous income and continued publishing success for Ms. Rowling and her publisher. :O)

I wrote before that believers give too much authority to, and have far too much faith in, their leaders. This muggle fuddle in New Mexico is just another example of what can happen when believers blindly follow their
leadership.

I offer my interpretation of Hebrews 13:17 to this pastor and his flock:

"Rely upon them that rule over you, being convinced by your earnest inspection and review of your memories of their testimonies that they are faithful, their testimonies consistently reflecting Jesus Christ's own
character. In your own lives, imitate their consistent testimonies and being convinced of their continued faithfulness, voluntarily yield yourselves to their leadership:"

Don't follow because they lead, Folks. Follow them only if they follow Christ.

... and follow with your eyes OPEN.

- Mike Jackson

[This message has been edited by dadnson (edited 12-27-2001).]

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keri
Member

Posts: 192
From:Augusta, GA USA
Registered: Jul 2001
posted 12-28-2001 06:47 AM
I haven't actually seen the Harry Potter movie nor have I read the books. But, now with all the controversy it has become a must see. I can promise you it can't be any worst than some of the movies that show blood and gore. We worry about a little super natural fiction while we are so passé about the violence that most movies depict. I do wonder what everyone is so freaked out about. Fiction is just that.

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dadnson
Junior Member

Posts: 37
From:
Registered: Oct 2000
posted 12-28-2001 09:24 AM
"keri" wrote - "... we are so passé about the violence that most movies depict..."

I know. The movie industry can turn out films that are incredibly debased and intensely violent. A film can portray abuse, gore, sexual perversion, explicit sexual acts, and humor beyond simply crudity, but the Religious Right waits for something like "Harry Potter" to raise a cry of opposition.

I'm personally appalled when I see children who are obviously not 17 or older, being allowed to view PG-17 and above movies by their parents or other adult escort. Some parents take their (under 10) children into movies totally inappropriate for young children.

My son's told me how many of his classmates regularly watch these sorts of films and other related programming and publications.

I personally feel that it's sad when a pastor encourages his flock to burn the "Harry Potter" books, but apparently doesn't do the same for the movies and books that encourage children to get involved in far worse things.

The feelings of the New Mexico pastor towards "Harry Potter" may be an indication of his stand on other things. If he is an extreme fundamentalist, he may also espouse not going to the theater at all, insisting on long hair on women, no long hair on men, no slacks on women, no shorts on anyone, no TV, no Internet, etc., etc.

It's the "Rules" mindset rather than the "Principles" mindset. You can teach folk not to do certain things by imposing a set of rules on them, or you can train them to recognize when something is inappropriate and not good for them to participate in. The first mindset is religion; the latter is faith-based spiritual maturity.

(Humph! I think that I just described how to properly raise children!)

Knowing the Religious Right from the inside through my own experiences, I would think that something like sexually explicit romance novels, some video games, and video tapes of offensive films would have made the toasted marshmallow list years ago. But, it takes something like "Harry Potter" to fuel the fires, so to speak.

Some pastors are fueling those burning barrels and bonfires with "Harry Potter" books, when they should probably be watching something like Cartoon Network or PBS and opposing some of the programming there that is far worse than Ms. Rowling's books will ever be. When was the last time that you heard of a pastor sponsoring a burning of evolution books and videos? Or a "Burn Dragon Ball Z" bonfire?

Believers worry so much about the occult. My own opinion is that the real threat is the failure of pastors to teach the believers that follow them, principles that will allow them to recognize and avoid the more subtle machinations of Satan in today's societies.

It will not be the rules that I taught my son when he was very young that will protect him from danger and stupid mistakes as a young adult. It will be the principles that I'm teaching him, principles that encourage and equip a person to make wise decisions and his ability to use them successfully that will help to keep him safe.

It just isn't enough to drill children (or believers) in a set of rules for living; one has to teach them how to live by giving them principles that will help them to make their own set of personal life rules.

Rules help them to learn when they are very young, but principles help them to live when they come of age and have to make life decisions for themselves.

- Mike Jackson

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Valiantdancer
Member

Posts: 113
From:Villa Park, IL, USA
Registered: Oct 2001
posted 12-28-2001 10:15 AM
Originally posted by dadnson:
"keri" wrote - "... we are so passé about the violence that most movies depict..."

I know. The movie industry can turn out films that are incredibly debased and intensely violent. A film can portray abuse, gore, sexual perversion, explicit sexual acts, and humor beyond simply crudity, but the Religious Right waits for something like "Harry Potter" to raise a cry of opposition.

I'm personally appalled when I see children who are obviously not 17 or older, being allowed to view PG-17 and above movies by their parents or other adult escort. Some parents take their (under 10) children into movies totally inappropriate for young children.

My son's told me how many of his classmates regularly watch these sorts of films and other related programming and publications.

I personally feel that it's sad when a pastor encourages his flock to burn the "Harry Potter" books, but apparently doesn't do the same for the movies and books that encourage children to get involved in far worse things.

The feelings of the New Mexico pastor towards "Harry Potter" may be an indication of his stand on other things. If he is an extreme fundamentalist, he may also espouse not going to the theater at all, insisting on long hair on women, no long hair on men, no slacks on women, no shorts on anyone, no TV, no Internet, etc., etc.

It's the "Rules" mindset rather than the "Principles" mindset. You can teach folk not to do certain things by imposing a set of rules on them, or you can train them to recognize when something is inappropriate and not good for them to participate in. The first mindset is religion; the latter is faith-based spiritual maturity.

(Humph! I think that I just described how to properly raise children!)

Knowing the Religious Right from the inside through my own experiences, I would think that something like sexually explicit romance novels, some video games, and video tapes of offensive films would have made the toasted marshmallow list years ago. But, it takes something like "Harry Potter" to fuel the fires, so to speak.

Some pastors are fueling those burning barrels and bonfires with "Harry Potter" books, when they should probably be watching something like Cartoon Network or PBS and opposing some of the programming there that is far worse than Ms. Rowling's books will ever be. When was the last time that you heard of a pastor sponsoring a burning of evolution books and videos? Or a "Burn Dragon Ball Z" bonfire?

Believers worry so much about the occult. My own opinion is that the real threat is the failure of pastors to teach the believers that follow them, principles that will allow them to recognize and avoid the more subtle machinations of Satan in today's societies.

It will not be the rules that I taught my son when he was very young that will protect him from danger and stupid mistakes as a young adult. It will be the principles that I'm teaching him, principles that encourage and equip a person to make wise decisions and his ability to use them successfully that will help to keep him safe.

It just isn't enough to drill children (or believers) in a set of rules for living; one has to teach them how to live by giving them principles that will help them to make their own set of personal life rules.

Rules help them to learn when they are very young, but principles help them to live when they come of age and have to make life decisions for themselves.

- Mike Jackson


Any time I hear of a group wanting to burn books or movies, I keep thinking of pictures from Kristal Nacht. (The night of broken glass.) The Nazis burned "subversive", "immoral", and "degenerate" works. Censorship at it's worst. I've picked up Harry Potter books in book stores and thumbed through them. I didn't think they were on par with Heinlien, Tolkien, or Salvatore. Nice children's fiction, thats all.
It is important to note that if you instruct your children in your religion and give them the rational tools with which to defend it, it is not likely they will abandon it. They will see inconsistencies in the presentation of the cultish "witchcraft is power" people. Wiccans are on guard against these people as well. "Charmed" is yet another show which is objected to as it shows self-proclaimed "witches" able to to the flashy Hollywoodized special effects magic. How Wicca responded was to try to organize a boycott of products advertized and refusal to watch the show. The most powerful weapon to use against bad stereotypes and hate speech is to hit them in the pocketbook. Boycott the products that advertize on objectionable shows and let the companies know why. It worked on the Dr. Laura show. The real plus is that it isn't censorship. It's exercising your free will to get a desired response. Burning objectionable material gives the producers vindication that their work is suppressed by a totalarianist group. This spurs them to produce more of the same stuff. If it is a commercial flop, then the onus is more on the message that is wrong.


------------------
Valiant Dancer
Responding Wiccan

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dadnson
Junior Member

Posts: 37
From:
Registered: Oct 2000
posted 12-31-2001 02:31 PM
"Valiant Dancer wrote - "Any time I hear of a group wanting to burn books or movies, I keep thinking of pictures from Kristal Nacht. (The night of broken glass.) The Nazis burned "subversive", "immoral", and "degenerate" works. Censorship at it's worst..."

Yes, the New Mexico burning brings to mind that sort of censorship. Unfortunately, church leaders have a tendency to blind themselves to history's lessons.

In my own opinion, it's one thing for an individual to destroy the trappings, tools, or memorabilia of a lifestyle when going through a drastic change in life. It can be help in hardening one's self against going back into the previous behavior associated with the rejected lifestyle.

It's entirely a different thing when an organization deems to force it's followers, and others not associated with the organization, to destroy the works and property of others. It's sad that this pastor and his supporters may have not considered what could happen if they started a feeding frenzy amongst the more zealous of their followers.

It's one thing to oppose abortion, for example, it's another to find oneself responsible for inciting a zealot to bomb abortion clinics. No matter how much the Religious Right protests, I personally feel that they will always be primarily responsible for the loss of life, limb, and property associated with abortion clinic bombings.

I don't like to imagine what could potentially happen if a few zealots decided that there were "better ways" of dealing with the "Harry Potter" phenomenon.

"It is important to note that if you instruct your children in your religion and give them the rational tools with which to defend it, it is not likely they will abandon it."

I heartily agree with you on this.

"Wiccans are on guard against [cultish 'witchcraft is power'] people as well."

... and, I didn't know this. Thank you for sharing this information. I find this very interesting, and a bit amusing. How would the New Mexico pastor feel to know that some Wiccans agree with him about Hollywood's love for flashy portrayals of witchcraft?

"The most powerful weapon to use against bad stereotypes and hate speech is to hit them in the pocketbook. Boycott..."

Yes, it's hard to run an organization without funding.

"The real plus is that [boycott] isn't censorship. It's exercising your free will to get a desired response."

I like that phrase, "free will". I believe that it can be found in the Bible, too. :O)

- Mike Jackson

[This message has been edited by dadnson (edited 12-31-2001).]

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Old Sailor
Junior Member

Posts: 48
From:Augusta, GA
Registered: Dec 2001
posted 12-31-2001 02:52 PM
"And what most anti-religious fanatics fail to see and understand is that the miracles performed in the bible were documented and had witnesses.A far cry from fantasy."

Oh please, who documented them? If you know your bible which you obviously don't is that the bible was passed down by word of mouth. When it was finally put on paper it was edited to match up with and to exceed science....ie: Galleo proved that the sun revolved around the sun rather than the sun and universe revolved around the earth...." Harry Potter and all fantasy is for entertainment. The Bible is for religous use, try to keep them separate.

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dadnson
Junior Member

Posts: 37
From:
Registered: Oct 2000
posted 12-31-2001 03:08 PM
CNN.com./Entertainment
December 31, 2001 Posted: 8:38 AM EST (1338 GMT) "Citing witchcraft theme..."

"Citing witchcraft theme, New Mexico church burns Harry Potter books"

Ouija boards, the works of Shakespeare, "Harry Potter" books, AC/DC records and more burn in a "holy fire" in front of Christ Community Church.

ALAMOGORDO, New Mexico (AP) -- As hundreds protested nearby, a church group burned Harry Potter and other books.

Jack Brock, the Christ Community Church founder and pastor, said the books burned Sunday were "a masterpiece of satanic deception."

"These books teach children how they can get into witchcraft and become a witch, wizard or warlock," Brock said. Members sang "Amazing Grace" as they threw Potter books, plus some other books and magazines, into the fire.

Across the street, protesters chanting "Stop burning books" stretched in a line a quarter of a mile long.

"It may be useless but we want (the church) to know the community is not behind them," said Joann Booth, who protested with her four grandchildren. One protester dressed up as Adolf Hitler.

Brock told the congregation that he viewed the attention the church received as a blessing.

"There are those that are doing their best to make us look bad." Brock said. "But because of this, I've been able to preach the gospel around the world."

A letter to the Alamogordo Daily News inviting the community to attend the fire sparked debate in the town of 36,000. On Tuesday, protesters held signs reading "Book burning? Shame on our town" in front of the public library. Inside was a display highlighting the books.

Copyright 2001 The Associated Press. All rights reserved.
-------

Oh, for Pete's sake, they burned the works of Shakespeare?!

My wife and I were attending Bob Jones University when we met, and the works of Shakespeare were definitely accepted there. For that matter, I still remember the audience's reaction to Dr. Bob Jones Jr's rendition of the character Cyrano in Edmond Rostand's play "Cyrano de Bergerac" (1897), based on the life of Savinien de Cyrano de Bergerac. There we were, in the theater at the University, and Dr. Bob Jr.'s character loudly calls another character an "ass." Priceless.

To quote the above article, "Brock told the congregation that he viewed the attention the church received as a blessing... 'There are those that are doing their best to make us look bad.' Brock said. 'But because of this, I've been able to preach the gospel around the world.'"

"Preach the gospel around the world"? I beg to differ with the pastor on this. I feel that all that he managed to do was to make himself, his church, and the name of Christ look foolish to the million of viewers of CNN Headline News.

To my brother in Christ, Brock:

In my own personal opinion, I feel that all that you managed to do by holding your burning was to gain a few minutes of attention on internationally viewed television and on the Internet.

I sincerely feel that you failed Christ, and failed to properly perform the duties of your call to God's service. You failed to lead your flock in the ways of Christ. You're raising "sheep" to follow your own voice, not nurturing the children of God under your leadership to follow His voice.

Contrary to your claim, I believe that you failed to lead many to Christ through the exposure of your book burning by the media.

However, personally I do feel that in your attempt to extend the reach of your own personal convictions in relation to the "Harry Potter" phenomenon, you succeeded beyond the Enemy's expectations in making a fool of yourself, of believers in general and of the Gospel of Christ.

- Mike Jackson

[This message has been edited by dadnson (edited 12-31-2001).]

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dadnson
Junior Member

Posts: 37
From:
Registered: Oct 2000
posted 12-31-2001 09:19 PM
"Old Sailor" wrote - "Oh please, who documented [miracles performed in the bible]? If you know your bible..."

Actually, I do know my Bible somewhat and you're mistaken about how it's content was passed down to us living today. In place of my appearing arrogant or self-righteous, and with a sincere desire to not fragment this topic into a discussion of Biblical accuracy, I'd like to suggest that you investigate this for yourself. Your current sources seem to have provided you with misinformation about the Bible and the origin of it's content.

You wrote - "When it was finally put on paper it was edited to match up with and to exceed science....ie: Galleo proved that the sun revolved around the sun rather than the sun and universe revolved around the earth...."

I'm afraid that this is incorrect, especially with the reference to Galileo Galilei's support of Copernicus's theory. Galileo, astronomer and physicist, was the first to use a telescope to study the stars in 1610, and was an outspoken advocate of Copernicus's theory that the sun forms the center of the universe, that the Earth and other planets revolve around the sun.

Which, because of the ignorance of men, led to his persecution and imprisonment by the Inquisition in 1633. The Roman Catholic Church, unsupported by the Scriptures, insisted on public adherence to the "flat earth" belief. This erroneous belief was never supported by any reference in the Scriptures, but by the mistaken and unscientific beliefs of the supposed learned men of the day. They didn't rewrite or edit the Scriptures, they ignored them completely.

You also wrote - "Harry Potter and all fantasy is for entertainment. The Bible is for religous use, try to keep them separate."

I disagree with this sentiment also. Fictional stories, whether prose or fantasy, as well as the content of the Bible can be used for entertainment or as text for teaching important concepts. I think that the video series "VeggieTales" makes that abundantly clear. :O)

Personally, I have no place for religion in my life as a believer, and apparently, neither did Christ. I'm just trying to follow His example, and wishing terribly that I could do a better job of it.

It's the "magical" content of the "Harry Potter" books and movie that arouse the opposition of folks like that pastor and his followers in New Mexico. They can't see the good that the stories can do because they are too lost in their religion to recognize that the stories are not a threat to their relationship with God.

I simply wish that believers would be as adamant and dedicated to obeying the traffic laws as they are in scaring the daylights out of young impressionable children.

Which is worse? Ignoring and allowing the "Harry Potter" phenomenon to run it's course and pass into history as do many childish fads...

... or, driving like the devil and being the cause of an automobile accident that introduces one of these little ones to death and Heaven?

... or, less horrific yet more deadly, have someone following a believer's automobile or a church's Sunday School bus and because of the maniacal driving of the believer at the wheel, influencing that someone to turn their back on God's grace to be eternally damned?

Methinks that believers have their priorities confused.

- Mike Jackson

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Old Sailor
Junior Member

Posts: 48
From:Augusta, GA
Registered: Dec 2001
posted 01-04-2002 11:15 AM
quote:
Originally posted by dadnson:
Actually, I do know my Bible somewhat and you're mistaken about how it's content was passed down to us living today. In place of my appearing arrogant or self-righteous, and with a sincere desire to not fragment this topic into a discussion of Biblical accuracy, I'd like to suggest that you investigate this for yourself. Your current sources seem to have provided you with misinformation about the Bible and the origin of it's content.



I believe that you are mistaken, I know my Bible somewhat too and I also have coupled that with my study of history. The Bible was passed down by word of mouth and eventually recorded on clay tablets and scrolls. During the Middle Ages the scrolls were hand printed by monks and EDITED.

I do agree with you on the rest of your statement.


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HChandler1278
Member

Posts: 370
From:Houston, TX
Registered: Jun 2001
posted 01-04-2002 11:32 AM
quote:
Originally posted by dadnson:


Oh, for Pete's sake, they burned the works of Shakespeare?!

My wife and I were attending Bob Jones University ...



Bob Jones, huh? Both of my parents attended that University. They tried to convince me to go but I was never down with the ankle-length skirts, mandatory pantyhose or chaperoned dates. I'm actually surprised they finally decided to "endorse" interracial dating.

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dadnson
Junior Member

Posts: 37
From:
Registered: Oct 2000
posted 01-05-2002 08:43 AM
"Old Sailor" wrote - "I believe that you are mistaken, I know my Bible somewhat too and I also have coupled that with my study of history. The Bible was passed down by word of mouth and eventually recorded on clay tablets and scrolls. During the Middle Ages the scrolls were hand printed by monks and EDITED."

Not wanting this topic to digress into a discussion of Biblical accuracy, I still disagree with your sources. There are enough ancient texts, predating the translations that were done during the Middle Ages to verify the texts that we have today.

It's not wise to fall back on the 1611 King James Version of the Scriptures without using the older texts to clarify some of the minor variations in the translations.

Personally, I use the New International Version for my own studies (original version, not the newer unisex silliness available in Europe at the present.) Not 100% perfect, but, in my own opinion, nearer to the original content of the various books in the Bible.

"I do agree with you on the rest of your statement."

Thank you.

-------
"HChandler1278" wrote - "Bob Jones, huh? Both of my parents attended that University. They tried to convince me to go but I was never down with the ankle-length skirts, mandatory pantyhose or chaperoned dates. I'm actually surprised they finally decided to "endorse" interracial dating."

I think that the idea was to raise the standards high enough at the school to leave room for the natural fall back of most students when they leave the school for "real" life". Just my thoughts on it, I could be wrong. It was tough attending there, but I appreciate some of the things that I took away with me when I left. Especially the one thing that was the most special, my wife! [smile]

I believe that it may be more of a "permit it" than "endorse it". I was never comfortable with that prohibition, but then again, I was a Yankee at the time, too. While I oppose racial prejudice, it took me some years to understand the issue from the viewpoint of someone growing up and living down south. Living down south for two decades has helped immensely to increase my understanding of the issue.

Personally, I always felt that the Scriptures that were used at BJU to support the "no interracial dating" prohibition were being misused, out of context and bore no relation to the dating issue.

Back on the "Harry Potter" topic, I was intrigued to find out yesterday that only three stores in town will be hosting "official" Harry Potter TCG Leagues. I have yet to talk with the third store, but doesn't seem to be a lot of enthusiasm being generated to encourage stores to host the leagues.

I should know more after our League starts this coming week, and I'm able to attend the third store's activities next weekend. I've put a lot into making the experience of attending our store's league meetings exciting and fun for the children.

It will be interesting to see if I wasted my efforts, or if the general consensus amongst local retailers that the Harry Potter TCG League isn't going to be a sales generator is correct.

- Mike Jackson

[This message has been edited by dadnson (edited 01-05-2002).]

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Old Sailor
Junior Member

Posts: 48
From:Augusta, GA
Registered: Dec 2001
posted 01-07-2002 10:17 AM
We agree to disagree...Thanks!!!!

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dadnson
Junior Member

Posts: 37
From:
Registered: Oct 2000
posted 01-09-2002 12:10 AM
"Old Sailor" wrote - "We agree to disagree...Thanks!!!!"

I enjoy conversing with someone who knows that not everyone will agree with everyone else, and who is willing to allow things to rest when this is realized. Thank you.

We held our first Harry Potter TCG League meeting tonight. Seven children showed and registered for the League, and things went fairly well. The Harry Potter TCG is very different than the Pokémon TCG, and it will take a few meetings to get everyone settled in.

We have room for several dozen children all together, and room for a few more on a waiting list. It will be interesting to see how this goes.

I was pleased that there were no protests tonight, offered by detractors of the Harry Potter phenomenon. Then again, that may be a sad commentary. Sort of "We'll burn books, tapes and CD's for CNN News and support those who do likewise, but getting arrested personally for frightening children and having it filmed and reported by the local news folk is a bit too much."

I don't want the protests by any means; but, I do wonder where the "righteous indignation" went? Did the burning barrels cool, and the Religious Right crowd go home to get warm?

Or, did they realize that they need to get things right in their own lives before they meddle in other muggles' lives? As always, time will tell.

- Mike Jackson

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dadnson
Junior Member

Posts: 40
From:
Registered: Oct 2000
posted 01-25-2002 10:54 PM
What sort of commentary is it when the Religious Right raises its voice (and book of matches) and opposes a thing that they claim is inherently evil and deadly to our nation's children; yet just as quickly as aroused, goes back swiftly into it's usual comatose state?

The hue and cry was broadcast throughout the media to the world, and the smoke of the burning ascended swiftly into the skies over New Mexico and other locals. Pulpits were inflamed and illuminated by the impassioned sermons opposing the Harry Potter phenomenon, but apparently the heat of the moment passed and Christians quickly succumbed again to the lethargy that modern religion encourages.

The question here might be whether there was ever a real threat to our nation's children, or if the Religious Right simply gathered up Harry Potter merchandise in order to fuel some free media coverage.

Quoting the CNN News article from December 31, 2001:

"There are those that are doing their best to make us look bad." [The pastor of the New Mexico church] said. "But because of this, I've been able to preach the gospel around the world."

truly, my brother, then where are the professions of faith? Where are the public displays of the conversions that resulted from the media coverage, i.e. the baptisms? The evidence that the widely reported public burning influenced even a few to turn to Christ and to make public professions of faith in Him?

I would imagine, that in the normal course of things, that a few may have been influenced to turn to faith in God because of the media coverage of the events in New Mexico. The Spirit of God can work in people's hearts through anything that God chooses to use to introduce them to Himself. Even somewhat skewed news reports from CNN News.

It's just that, personally, I'm disappointed that all of the rhetoric and lighter fluid used by the Religious Right to illuminate themselves via the media appears to be nothing more than their hanging onto the coattails (or rather, the apron strings) of Ms. Rowling in order to get attention.

Imagine the "attention", not to mention the media coverage, which the Religious Right could get AND KEEP if they insisted on their followers obeying the traffic regulations for their particular locale.

Maybe the number of lives saved through their obedience to God's dictate that Christians are to obey their country's laws, would result in that many more folk to preach the Gospel to...

... maybe.

- Mike Jackson

[This message has been edited by dadnson (edited 01-25-2002).]

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dadnson
Junior Member

Posts: 40
From:
Registered: Oct 2000
posted 02-04-2002 02:38 AM
I heard recently on one of the local Christian radio stations' news reports that Taco Bell was conducting a promo for kids based on the "Cardcaptors" Anime series and game. What got my attention was the reference in the report to "Harry Potter".

I'm not sure how they came to the conclusion that Taco Bell is taking advantage of the "Harry Potter" phenomenon by using the Cardcaptors toys in their Kids Meals. "Harry Potter" and "Cardcaptors" are about as far apart as you can get story-wise.

I read through the background available on "Cardcaptors" at the home website of the anime series at Nelvana. Nelvana is the company marketing the "Cardcaptor" series and its related offerings here in the United Sates and Canada.

I did find a quote from one of the main characters in the series ("Keros, also called "Keroberos") related to the Clow (Cardcaptor) cards referred to by the news stories. The character says "They're a bit like those Tarot cards used in fortune telling, but they have a mind of their own, and there's nothing else on earth like them." Sort of a vague reference to Tarot cards, but until I actually view the TV show for myself, I'm going to reserve my personal judgment of "Cardcaptors".

I also found what appear to be the two articles that are the source of the news stories. Both articles were available at the "AgapePress" website:
"Parents Cautioned About Tarot Card Promotion"
and "Taco Bell Halts 'Tarot Card' Promotion"

It appears that the connection is "witchcraft" and "tarot cards", though I find it a bit perplexing that educated Christian leaders would connect this sort of Eastern Mysticism with the sort of witchcraft portrayed in the "Harry Potter" books and movie...

-------
"Parents Cautioned About Tarot Card Promotion"
By Rusty Pugh
January 29, 2002

(AgapePress) - A national fast-food chain is now including black magic in its "Kids Meals."

It has become the staple of late-night television infomercials -- the fortune-telling, tarot card-reading charlatans who promise viewers that, for a nominal fee, they can predict the future. The use of tarot cards is linked to the occult. Now, Taco Bell has begun giving out tarot cards in their "Kids Meals."

Randy Sharp, special projects director for the American Family Association, says Taco Bell is attempting to cash in on the "Harry Potter" craze of black magic -- and that families should beware.

"[The tarot card promotion] is part of an occult because these cards teach kids that they can predict [their own] future ... simply by turning over a playing card," Sharp says. "This is very dangerous, especially when you look at the occult [and] the controversy that Harry Potter brings with magical spells and sorcery."

The popular series of Harry Potter books and a recently released movie based on one of those books have been sharply criticized by many Christian and pro-family organizations around the U.S. as promoting witchcraft in a positive light.

Sharp recommends that families stay away from Taco Bell or any other restaurant that offers tarot cards or other occult symbols to young children. "Any parent who’s concerned about their children and the sorcery and the witchcraft and the fortune-telling that is presented in tarot cards, might want to avoid Taco Bell," he says. "There are alternative places to eat."

Sharp says Taco Bell and its parent company have no concern for the potential harm they could cause by promoting witchcraft and black magic. He believes they are concerned only with profit.
© 2002 AgapePress all rights reserved.
-------

Follow-up story:

-------
"Taco Bell Halts 'Tarot Card' Promotion"
By Rusty Pugh and Jody Brown
February 1, 2002

(AgapePress) - A national fast-food chain has stopped a promotion featuring cards that resemble tarot cards, which are associated with the occult.

Earlier this week, AgapePress reported on a promotion at Taco Bell that involved occult symbols. The company's "Cardcaptors" program involved the use of "Clow Cards," which are similar in appearance to tarot cards used in occult practices. Following that report, Taco Bell's national promotions director Lori Gannon says the company has halted the program following customers' complaints. She says it was a mistake.

"It's a cartoon program that's not meant to have anything to do with witchcraft, but we do see how consumers thought [the promotion] could have been misconstrued as that," Gannon says. "So we took a look at the items and we've held them all at the distribution center -- we're not sending them to our restaurants any more and pretty much have ended the program."

According to the Cardcaptors website, Clow Cards contain the magical power of entities such as water, fire, and wind, and were sealed in the "mystical Clow Book" by a powerful sorcerer to "protect the world" when the entities became "unwieldy and dangerous." By its own admission, the story behind the cartoon series resembles Eastern mythology.

Gannon says the company has learned a lesson. "We will definitely take a more serious look as we develop things in the future to make sure that they can't be misconstrued as something having to do with witchcraft," she says.

As of Friday morning, the Cardcaptors promotion was still featured on Taco Bell's website. The cards were being included in "Kids Meals" at Taco Bell nationwide.
© 2002 AgapePress all rights reserved.
-------

I'll post more when I can review the "Cardcaptors" TV show for myself; but until then, I personally believe that the Religious Right's association of "Cardcaptors" with "Harry Potter" may have been a mistake...

- Mike Jackson

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dadnson
Junior Member

Posts: 40
From:
Registered: Oct 2000
posted 04-11-2002 12:58 AM
Well, I thought that I'd post a closing message to this topic.

It's quieted down in public, but the Harry Potter issue still seems to be alive in the churches.

At least in the sense that it's decried and discouraged. I've seen some of our league children leave our group because they were encouraged to burn their Harry Potter things (at least I hope that they were encouraged. I'd hate to think that they were coerced by the church into doing it. Hmm... Inquisition, anyone?)

It's sad, that with all of the other things that we need to protect our kids from, the church decides to zero in on Harry Potter. I hope that I cannot be the only Christian that sees the hypocrisy that is alive in the body of Christ today.

God may deal with us slowly, but He deals with us all, in time. May our church leaders see themselves and their followers in the light of God's wisdom and truth...

... before we manage to send most of our community to hell in a basket.

May God protect our children and keep them in the palm of His hand.

TTFN - Mike Jackson

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